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Tenets

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Re: Tenets

#81

Post by pier25 »

Hugsun wrote: post #69
pier25 wrote: post #57

I started using Svelte a couple of years ago and I love it. Very quickly it became the only client side solution I want to use. Can't say the same about SvelteKit though. I've tried it a couple of times and it's just not fot me. It's really a tool built around a client side library and it shows (instead of being a backend framework).

I've been using it professionally for some time and find it pretty nice. What are your frustrations with it?

It's severely lacking in the backend but I guess this is more of a general issue with all so called full stack JS frameworks.

Specifically with SvelteKit the big deal breaker is routing. I also find the whole +page.svelte stuff to be a usability nightmare since I barely use the file explorer to move around a project and instead use fuzzy search. Unfortunately SvelteKit is pretty unflexible so you either love it or hate it.

It's really weird that I agree 100% with all the decisions regarding Svelte itself and how it's evolving (runes etc) but SvelteKit is just a big nope from me.

Re: Tenets

#82

Post by addandsubtract »

throwaway77384 wrote: post #29
rykuno wrote: post #25

The direction React/NextJS has taken modern web development is a modern day abomination. I say this as a passionate fullstack developer whos worked for YC startups and a fortune 10 company within the past decade. I appreciate Vercel as a company too; I have no hate towards them but the NextJS 13 release almost made me quit web development. Svelte is an absolute love language to the web and a direction for healing the…

So glad to see someone else say this. NextJS 13 was (is) a complete an utter disaster. I took on a reasonable-size project around that time and the documentation was incomplete, no library worked on it. Mystery caching and fetch-call deduplication all over the place. It was horrific. I wonder if things have improved since.

The trick is to just stick to the Pages Router in Next. The app router and RSC is still too early to use, imo, and needs at least another version or two to gain some support.

Re: Tenets

#83

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

blowski wrote: post #33
jmull wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a big fan of HTML itself, but I do think svelte is right to focus on it for specifying UI. That's because HTML is the native language for describing UI in the browser. No matter what you use to specify UI, you have to understand how it translates to HTML to use it in the browser (and how HTML translates back, for debugging). The further your UI specification language deviates from HTML the harder that it. Of…

> HTML is the native language for describing UI in the browser In the same way that assembler is the native language for giving instructions to the CPU. In practice, it is of zero importance, because there are powerful abstractions built on top of it, with wonderful benefits once you’re building anything more complicated than one-page documents.

problem is, the most important "abstractions" for describing the UI are not built "on top of" HTML, but along side it (CSS and to a limited degree JS). the relationship between contemporary "frameworks" and HTML is not like that of C and assembler or even Rust and assembler. It is more like that of a driver of a vehicle that has each of a gasoline, electric and steam powered motor, and must constantly pick which one to use for a given situation (sometimes two and occasionally all three).

Re: Tenets

#84

Post by robwg »

pier25 wrote: post #81
Hugsun wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using it professionally for some time and find it pretty nice. What are your frustrations with it?

It's severely lacking in the backend but I guess this is more of a general issue with all so called full stack JS frameworks. Specifically with SvelteKit the big deal breaker is routing. I also find the whole +page.svelte stuff to be a usability nightmare since I barely use the file explorer to move around a project and instead use fuzzy search. Unfortunately SvelteKit is pretty unflexible so you either love it or ha…

I wouldn't judge any JS framework like SvelteKit or Next.js on its lacking in the backend. They have a server to handle frontend problems, not solve your backend problems.

Re: Tenets

#85

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

spankalee wrote: post #45
nightski wrote: post #7

Now I know why I dislike Svelte so much, I don't believe in its principles. Which is perfectly fine, a framework can't please everyone. HTML is not the mother language - It's actually pretty terrible for describing dynamic user interfaces. This is why JS solutions are so appealing. If HTML is so magical why do they need a fancy template language? Magical, not magic - I really don't want it to feel magical either. I l…

> HTML is not the mother language - It's actually pretty terrible for describing dynamic user interfaces. I disagree a lot on HTML here - it's a pretty fantastic way of describing a render and layout tree, so much so that people are embedding HTML-like syntax in programming languages because the syntax is better than what the language already has to offer. To paraphrase something I've heard: JSX proves that HTML actu…

> I disagree a lot on HTML here - it's a pretty fantastic way of describing a render and layout tree,

In the context of the discussion, that would imply that "a render and layout tree" is a good way to describe a UI. That too is subject to serious questions.

Re: Tenets

#86

Post by nightski »

jmull wrote: post #77
nightski wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same argument could be said of JSX though.

Sure... but there are degrees of closeness to HTML and the closer to HTML it is, the less translation you have to do and the easier it is to deal with. That is, the closer to HTML the better. Plain javascript is a crappy way to represent HTML because both the syntax and semantics are different (and sometimes there are conflicts, like with "class"). JSX is better than plain javascript because the syntax is closer, but…

I'm not buying it. Svelte's template language also has different syntax/semantics from HTML as well - arguably just as much. The JSX parts are character for character the same as HTML as well, except for the class/className distinction (which if you have used Preact it does not have that issue).

Re: Tenets

#87

Post by moffkalast »

> Instead of striving to be the fastest or smallest or whateverest, we explicitly aim to be the framework with the best vibes.

Wat.

Re: Tenets

#88

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

troupo wrote: post #60
hpeter wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My browser can't run Delphi or Turbo Pascal.

I was responding to this: "There's literally nothing better than HTML for UI." In general that is false statement. In particular, when it relates to browsers, HTML is the local minimum of what can be done to describe the "UI". Because HTML (well, DOM) is the only thing to describe the UI in the browser, and it's abhorrently awful. It can barely describe a page with static text and some images (and even then tools lik…

Even after all that, you still haven't made explicit the thing that needs to be explicit for any of this to make any sense:

    ".... for UI *IN A BROWSER*"
I know it's convenient to forget the millions of us who spent years and continue to spend hours implementing UIs outside of a browser context, but it certainly doesn't feel very polite.

Re: Tenets

#89

Post by shdh »

nightski wrote: post #7

Now I know why I dislike Svelte so much, I don't believe in its principles. Which is perfectly fine, a framework can't please everyone. HTML is not the mother language - It's actually pretty terrible for describing dynamic user interfaces. This is why JS solutions are so appealing. If HTML is so magical why do they need a fancy template language? Magical, not magic - I really don't want it to feel magical either. I l…

Have used: Angular, Vue, Polymer 1 and 2, React

Svelte is by far my favorite framework of the lot. It’s also the most productive for me.

Re: Tenets

#90

Post by shdh »

ForHackernews wrote: post #20
nightski wrote: post #7

Now I know why I dislike Svelte so much, I don't believe in its principles. Which is perfectly fine, a framework can't please everyone. HTML is not the mother language - It's actually pretty terrible for describing dynamic user interfaces. This is why JS solutions are so appealing. If HTML is so magical why do they need a fancy template language? Magical, not magic - I really don't want it to feel magical either. I l…

No accounting for taste, I suppose. Writing JSX is a nightmare to me. It's like we've forgotten 20 years worth of hard-earned knowledge about the value of separation of concerns.

JSX is an anti-pattern IMO. People just don’t wana see it as such.
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