Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School • Hacker News Board

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#81

Post by WalterBright » Fri, May 04, 2012, 8:31 PM UTC

ap22213 wrote: post #11

When I was a poor kid from the rust belt, I dreamed of becoming an adult and getting a Phd. and talking deeply with the intellectual elite. I never got that Phd. but I became happily upper middle class, and thus got to hang out with a lot of Phds., often from good schools. Not surprisingly, many of them came from upper-class areas, and upper middle class or wealthy families. What surprised me of this bunch was the ge…

I did not have that experience at all. I was accepted at Caltech, and when I arrived I found it was incredibly fun to be around people who were smart and excited to learn the mysteries of the universe.

A friend of mine lived in an apartment off campus, and he'd invite lots over for his patented chicken wings recipe. The apartment manager, an older fellow, was invited too, and he'd just sit in a corner and say nothing.

After several incidents of this, I went over and asked him why he was interested in hanging around with a bunch of college kids. He replied that he found our conversations fascinating - we didn't talk about sports or music or girls, we talked about science, research, and ideas. He said he'd never heard anyone else talk like that.

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#82

Post by cafard » Fri, May 04, 2012, 11:44 PM UTC

Eliezer wrote: post #78

kitsune_ wrote: post #17

Errr? I don't know what schools are like in the Unites States, but I was probably taught the exact opposite of what is presented in this Forbes Article. For instance: "The people in charge have all the answers." > My history teacher would like to have word with you.

Did you ever have a word with your history teacher? Did anyone in your class ever stand up and contradict the history teacher, about anything, and not get slapped down for it? Did the history teacher ever once say, "Huh, I guess you're right about that"? You are exactly illustrating the point. Your history teacher is the one who gets to have the word.

I don't think I bothered to stand up, but yes, I did contradict my history teacher in 11th grade American history, and lived to tell the tale. He didn't say I was correct, but I'm willing to extend the right to disagree even to teachers.

Hell, my 10th grade religion teacher, Brother something-or-t'other FSC, let a couple of my classmates spend most of an hour saying that they thought the church was all wrong on premarital sex; if I recall correctly, he set aside the class for that purpose. He referred to it as Mr. A and Mr. B shaking the diocese to its foundations, and left it at that. I don't know what grades they got, but the grades didn't keep them out of college.

But: if your history teacher does not have information to convey that you are not aware of, then the school is failing you. You may certainly differ from the teacher or the school board in evaluating the effects of Columbus's arrival or Shay's Rebellion or the Mexican War, but you need to know something about them before you start disagreeing. It is my impression that the American public suffers rather more from lack of information than from enforcement of interpretations.

(Edit: my stories are from the days of the beginning of the 1970s, for what that's worth.)

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#83

Post by cafard » Fri, May 04, 2012, 11:45 PM UTC

Eliezer wrote: post #78

kitsune_ wrote: post #17

Errr? I don't know what schools are like in the Unites States, but I was probably taught the exact opposite of what is presented in this Forbes Article. For instance: "The people in charge have all the answers." > My history teacher would like to have word with you.

Did you ever have a word with your history teacher? Did anyone in your class ever stand up and contradict the history teacher, about anything, and not get slapped down for it? Did the history teacher ever once say, "Huh, I guess you're right about that"? You are exactly illustrating the point. Your history teacher is the one who gets to have the word.

I don't think I bothered to stand up, but yes, I did contradict my history teacher in 11th grade American history, and lived to tell the tale. He didn't say I was correct, but I'm willing to extend the right to disagree even to teachers.

Hell, my 10th grade religion teacher, Brother something-or-t'other FSC, let a couple of my classmates spend most of an hour saying that they thought the church was all wrong on premarital sex; if I recall correctly, he set aside the class for that purpose. He referred to it as Mr. A and Mr. B shaking the diocese to its foundations, and left it at that. I don't know what grades they got, but the grades didn't keep them out of college.

But: if your history teacher does not have information to convey that you are not aware of, then the school is failing you. You may certainly differ from the teacher or the school board in evaluating the effects of Columbus's arrival or Shay's Rebellion or the Mexican War, but you need to know something about them before you start disagreeing. It is my impression that the American public suffers rather more from lack of information than from enforcement of interpretations.

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#84

Post by WalterBright » Sat, May 05, 2012, 2:50 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #81

ap22213 wrote: post #11

When I was a poor kid from the rust belt, I dreamed of becoming an adult and getting a Phd. and talking deeply with the intellectual elite. I never got that Phd. but I became happily upper middle class, and thus got to hang out with a lot of Phds., often from good schools. Not surprisingly, many of them came from upper-class areas, and upper middle class or wealthy families. What surprised me of this bunch was the ge…

I did not have that experience at all. I was accepted at Caltech, and when I arrived I found it was incredibly fun to be around people who were smart and excited to learn the mysteries of the universe. A friend of mine lived in an apartment off campus, and he'd invite lots over for his patented chicken wings recipe. The apartment manager, an older fellow, was invited too, and he'd just sit in a corner and say nothing…

And where else could you drop in on a lecture by Feynman on the mathematics of potato chip worlds, and have Carl Sagan drop by your dorm for dinner and conversation about silicon based life?

I did not realize until years later what a treasure those experiences were.

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#85

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sat, May 05, 2012, 1:46 PM UTC

ntkachov wrote: post #16

Most of these things, I think, stem from the fact that it's much easier to take care of a class that believes in all 9 facts, than to take care of a class that doesn't. How many teachers could justify the 5 paragraph essay if all the kids started questioning them on the arbitrariness of that number? If you reward that kid that's really easy for you to take care off the others will follow, right? Standardized tests me…

I've a rule to let my kids question anything once - they must provide a rationale if they wish to reverse my decision. However, it does sometimes come down to a simple exertion of authority (ie because I say so trumps the unsupported objections). I find now that J at 6 can usually answer my side and rationalise why an a priori arbitrary demand is being made.

Surely any teacher could readily answer a challenge like 'why not 3 paragraphs?' and this is a valid and worthy question for a student.

Unfortunately at some point the student will have to accept irrational or limited reasoning and learn to live with that, eg why does the law require me to learn that.

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#86

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sat, May 05, 2012, 2:03 PM UTC

PaperclipTaken wrote: post #38

There's a big difference in how students are taught and what students are thought to think from school to school, which is mostly correlated with income bracket. It's not that our leadership structure or general society has this 'keep the poor down' mentality, it has to do with the general mentality of the teachers and the general mentality of the students. Think of the demographics of the teachers. In low income are…

>Many teachers in the English department actively rejected the idea of a 5 paragraph model

Hmm. There are problems with that - writing to a limit / self editting is a skill in itself. Work needs to be equable in format to be readily compared.

Should every piece of prose be written to a format requirement, no. Should the idea of writing to a particular format be rejected? No IMO.

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#87

Post by nerdfiles » Sat, May 05, 2012, 2:25 PM UTC

nerdfiles wrote: post #27

kitsune_ wrote: post #17

Errr? I don't know what schools are like in the Unites States, but I was probably taught the exact opposite of what is presented in this Forbes Article. For instance: "The people in charge have all the answers." > My history teacher would like to have word with you.

My issue with that statement is that it it'z misleading. People in charge have all the answers to that which they are in charge of. Naturally you resist their domain as you resist their.

[sorry, incomplete post that was sent on accident]