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You are what you love

gspanos.tech

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Re: You are what you love

#81

Post by CooCooCaCha »

polio wrote: post #74
kubb wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an empathetic person, this really makes me feel that we should fight for an economic system that gives people more leisure. Rewarding life doesn't need to be expensive, but it does require us to have the time to do something that we love. This is also why I dream about financial independence. I'm not lazy, I just want to do something else than what I have to.

I think we're at a point in the history of Western civilization where we should strive to guarantee non-painful survival for all our citizens. This doesn't necessarily mean comfort, but nobody who grew up legally in the United States should have to wonder about finding nutritious food; clean water; and a quiet, warm, and secure place to sleep. I only restrict this tentatively to citizens because I think these program…

I totally agree and I don't understand why everyone isn't on board with this vision. Sometimes I look around and think "this can't be the end of the story, there has to be a better way to run society".

What's interesting are the libertarian types who want the opposite. You don't get anything by default, you have to fight for everything. All I can think of is 1) why? and 2) is that really their vision of the future? Like in 100 years we'll still have to work meaningless jobs just to put food on our table? Is that really the future we want?

Re: You are what you love

#82

Post by coldtea »

baggy_trough wrote: post #50
coldtea wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should fight for an economic system that gives people more leisure We don't even have an economic system that pays well or treats people humanely...

Compared to what?

Compared to one that pays well and treats people humanely.

It's not like that in order to suggest that something is bad there must be an existing better version. The suggestion can be about creating that better version.

That of course is a general answer to your asking for a comparison, as if lack of one would refute the point.

Some country first abolished child labour, even when all others still had it. Where the people who advocated for that misguided, since they didn't have a better example to "compare" to?

These are of course also concrete answers to your question, like many EU countries where the vacation period is one month, where there are better employee protections, where there is less discrimination, where overtime is frowned upon and the work culture is not the US "grind", where waiters don't have to make do on tipping, and so on.

They don't have to be perfect in everything either (because an easy knee jerk critique would immediately point to some other shortcomings in their work arrangements). For the point of the suggestion, it's enough that they have better aspects than some country like the US could also adopt.

Re: You are what you love

#83

Post by marcosdumay »

coldtea wrote: post #48
kubb wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an empathetic person, this really makes me feel that we should fight for an economic system that gives people more leisure. Rewarding life doesn't need to be expensive, but it does require us to have the time to do something that we love. This is also why I dream about financial independence. I'm not lazy, I just want to do something else than what I have to.

> we should fight for an economic system that gives people more leisure We don't even have an economic system that pays well or treats people humanely...

All the evidence point towards the GP's goal being more realistic than fixing just that intermediate step.

Re: You are what you love

#84

Post by karmakaze »

inertiatic wrote: post #2

>I find it really challenging to talk with people who have completely separated their work from their emotional being. For me, work is part of life and it should be a meaningful one. I like my work too but when I hear things like this it's so hard not to cringe because of how much of a place of privilege this comes from. Most jobs are things no one would want to do if they didn't need to survive, and that's fundament…

It's also a recipe for a bad work environment. It's good to have passion and accountability in doing good work. It becomes a problem when you identify with your creations, then anything said about it can only be taken personally without an ability to detach from it and speak/think objectively.

Re: You are what you love

#85

Post by scruple »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #33
Dachande663 wrote: post #8

I used to be the same. Until I started a family. You suddenly realise how… unimportant coding is when you have people who depend on you and you them. I’m a different developer now than I was back then, but I think better for it.

> Until I started a family. I'm 51 and I've got a family too (9 years old kid) and my love for coding and tinkering with computers never went away. For example yesterday evening when they were asleep I spent hours playing with a (used) NUC I just bought. I did hack on some scripts too. My hobbies are my cars and computing and I love that, since forever. And I still love these even though I've got a family. I'd argue…

I love my family and I love programming but I'm only showing up to daily standup because they pay me to.

Re: You are what you love

#86

Post by deebosong »

boredemployee wrote: post #54

Well. The paragraph below really comes at a good time, >> Emotion cannot be separate from work. It has to be a part of it. When working, you’re expressing yourself. You express beliefs, opinions, and strategies, world views. You cannot detach yourself completely from work. I doubt that you ever should. because 2 days ago I had a discussion with the owner of the company I work for (and, therefore, my boss), where I to…

Your boss sounds like they have an extremely rigid view of what emotions are and aren't "correct" in any given setting. Sounds controlling, and lacking a fundamental understanding of reality, people, and basic empathy.

I don't think all bosses are like this, but the ones who express these views in critical junctures that reveal their character and world views as such, I think it's safe to say that they indeed are intellectually and developmentally blunted (of the emotional intelligence, interpersonal relationship, and leadership dynamics variety) in a manner that can cause legitimate harm to anyone under their authority and has to take orders from them.

Re: You are what you love

#87

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

karmakaze wrote: post #84
inertiatic wrote: post #2

>I find it really challenging to talk with people who have completely separated their work from their emotional being. For me, work is part of life and it should be a meaningful one. I like my work too but when I hear things like this it's so hard not to cringe because of how much of a place of privilege this comes from. Most jobs are things no one would want to do if they didn't need to survive, and that's fundament…

It's also a recipe for a bad work environment. It's good to have passion and accountability in doing good work. It becomes a problem when you identify with your creations , then anything said about it can only be taken personally without an ability to detach from it and speak/think objectively.

Actual artists are a little better at this.

Despite the passion they pour into their work, they understand that once it's out there in the world, it's not theirs anymore. The moment the artist lets go of it, it belongs to the viewer, who will interpret it differently through the lens of all their personal experience. And if the thing is any good, it will be heavily analyzed and critiqued, so to stay sane the artist has to completely let go of it and focus their energy on their next creation.

Re: You are what you love

#88

Post by chefandy »

baggy_trough wrote: post #71
chefandy wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe compared to ones that don’t toss mid and late career professionals out like a bag of moldy peaches when some confluence of economical and technological factors makes them inconvenient, no matter if they’ve got kids, or a cancer diagnosis, are supporting lots of relatives, or anything else like that, and then say it’s their fault for not predicting it. Maybe ones that don’t financially ruin people because the ho…

What ones would those be?

> What ones would those be?

If you really don't know, I'm not your research assistant so I won't go look up things like universal health care and the social support strategies of various European countries for you. If you're just trying to bait me into some sort of pedantic argument, I'm far past the age where I felt compelled to interact with people who think being deliberately obtuse is a valid conversation tactic. Either way, I'm going to let you finish this one yourself. Have a fantastic sunday.

Re: You are what you love

#89

Post by djoletina »

agumonkey wrote: post #7
inertiatic wrote: post #2

>I find it really challenging to talk with people who have completely separated their work from their emotional being. For me, work is part of life and it should be a meaningful one. I like my work too but when I hear things like this it's so hard not to cringe because of how much of a place of privilege this comes from. Most jobs are things no one would want to do if they didn't need to survive, and that's fundament…

so many people argue the opposite, to me I often am what I do, which is an issue since most people want to get away from the tasks as soon as possible there's also the problem of ending exploited since you will accept doing more for less

Same here. And when you make a point of it in conversation you’re considered the crazy one. Let alone mention it to coworkers, you’re instantly a kissass.

Re: You are what you love

#90

Post by nonrandomstring »

t0bia_s wrote: post #76
nonrandomstring wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't fixating on "privilege" a way of avoiding more troubling thoughts far beyond guilt? As if God made some people rich and some poor, and that's the way the world is. Let's all say a prayer for them? The Protestant work ethic once contained many good things like a sense of duty, efficiency, self-discipline and so on. Emancipation of others, and helping others out of poverty was always built into that! But under la…

What would be a fix for capitalism that cripples our attitude to work?

> What would be a fix for capitalism that cripples our attitude to work?

Us. Our culture.

FWIW I'll try to explain a little more. I mean, that's a great question but I think it's the wrong question, if you don't mind me saying that.

Nobody can see outside the logic of their own epoch.

Capitalism can't be "fixed", because it's just what it is. If we "fixed" it, it wouldn't be capitalism any more, it would be something else. In fact it's been many different things over the past centuries as it transforms, much as people like Smith and Marx predicted.

Most people at this point say "Okay, smarty.. so what will you replace it with?". And again, wrong question. There is no list of "systems" that could simply be plugged in as replacements. That kind of nonsense leads to great leaps into famine and 20 million starving. Politics is not software like that. At best it's a set of potential slow paths that all start at where we are now. It is not even a set of destinations, because every end point we pursue changes with the dynamics of time and change itself.

The question, as I see it, is what do we change in ourselves to make capitalism work. What makes capitalism into a non-toxic system that does not destroy our planet and lead us to perpetual cycles of war, and misery and self-hatred?

Now if you want to talk about that list... that's another conversation.

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