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The EPA is proposing that 'forever chemicals' be considered hazardous substances

npr.org

81–90 of 237 posts

Re: The EPA is proposing that 'forever chemicals' be considered hazardous substances

#81
post #8
post #7

We really need a concept of scale when it comes to branding a chemical "toxic". Small amounts for particular purposes are not harmful. Being everywhere may cause some problems.

I don't follow. Are you saying we should hold off laws that deem e.g. teflon toxic, until there's teflon everywhere? The government: There's almost no teflon in the ground, so that's good. The market: Hold my beer.

We're not allowed to begin bailing the water out of the sinking ship until the ship is sunk.

You'd think we'd finally have gotten far enough in education to not be so easily carrot and sticked. But damn. People coming out of the woodwork in this thread to defend literal world contamination.

Re: The EPA is proposing that 'forever chemicals' be considered hazardous substances

#82
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s pretty simple, don’t dump chemicals in water or on land period. Everything is chemicals. You just described 2/3 of all industrial activity and proposed we should stop them. Are you willing to take the consequences which follow from that proposal? (And somehow forgot the 1/3 “dump chemicals in air”)

Chemicals are shorthand for synthetic chemicals. We co-evolved with natural chemicals which means that they're usually not too harmful to us and get easily biodegraded. In this case it's about PFAS, a subgroup of organofluorine compounds. There's only 5 known organofluorine compounds produced by organisms.

> We co-evolved with natural chemicals which means that they're usually not too harmful to us

There are plenty of counter examples to this (and also pretty unclear what is meant by "natural")

Lead is natural. Mercury is natural.

Re: The EPA is proposing that 'forever chemicals' be considered hazardous substances

#83
post #78
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference between lye (dangerous), sand (not dangerous unless it suffocates things or gets crushed and inhaled), water (can cause flooding or drowning, otherwise harmless), and sodium bicarbonate (quite basic, generally harmless), and hydrazine (mutagenic, highly toxic, highly flammable)? All of these have hazards in specific circumstances, and huge benefits in others. All are chemicals. All are well kno…

>What is the difference between lye (dangerous), sand (not dangerous unless it suffocates things or gets crushed and inhaled), water (can cause flooding or drowning, otherwise harmless), and sodium bicarbonate (quite basic, generally harmless), and hydrazine (mutagenic, highly toxic, highly flammable)? The MSDSes will elaborate on this and you probably know that. This thread chain has gotten impressively disingenuous…

No, you’re just being disingenuous.

How do you create a MSDS for a chemical that hasn’t been made yet?

How do you decide it’s safe to create a large enough quantity of a chemical to figure out what even should be in that MSDS?

How can you know if something is mutagenic without exposing it to DNA? Or cancer causing without exposing it to a living organism? Or causes reproductive harm without exposing it to organisms and seeing how it impacts reproduction?

Those all are potential harms.

Traditionally, some enterprising alchemist/chemist would just try it - and if they lived, would write a paper on it. Further research and experience would then inform if a better alternative should be used.

The Haber-Bosch process that allowed the creation of artificial fertilizers has allowed for the massive expansion of the human race. Roughly 3/4 of the humans on this planet right now would starve to death without it. Assuming they didn’t get nuked first. That was in 1909.

It also allowed for the creation of modern high explosives (and propellants) at scale, and the horrors of WW1 and WW2. And the mining revolution, which has provided the raw materials necessary to build our modern economies at vastly cheaper prices than were ever possible before for humanity.

Chemistry is a fundamental building block of modern society, and removing it would literally cause its sudden and violent collapse.

Deciding if ‘freezing’ it in place, or letting it continue to develop new and interesting applications is the discussion - because no, we weren’t sustainable before (unless you count constant and ongoing genocides as ‘sustainable’), and we’ve long passed the point where trying to return to that would be anything but apocalyptic.

Literally.

And keeping in mind that just because we agree to stop research in one area doesn’t mean anyone else (competitors) will do so. Regardless of if that is in the realm of drugs, or weapons, or soaps, or foods, or whatever.

Re: The EPA is proposing that 'forever chemicals' be considered hazardous substances

#84
post #78
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference between lye (dangerous), sand (not dangerous unless it suffocates things or gets crushed and inhaled), water (can cause flooding or drowning, otherwise harmless), and sodium bicarbonate (quite basic, generally harmless), and hydrazine (mutagenic, highly toxic, highly flammable)? All of these have hazards in specific circumstances, and huge benefits in others. All are chemicals. All are well kno…

>What is the difference between lye (dangerous), sand (not dangerous unless it suffocates things or gets crushed and inhaled), water (can cause flooding or drowning, otherwise harmless), and sodium bicarbonate (quite basic, generally harmless), and hydrazine (mutagenic, highly toxic, highly flammable)? The MSDSes will elaborate on this and you probably know that. This thread chain has gotten impressively disingenuous…

> The line to be crossed is obviously at least a few blocks up the way from "what is the difference between water and hydrazine though".

Do you actually have a line? We can't make a law out of people saying "you know what i mean".

Re: The EPA is proposing that 'forever chemicals' be considered hazardous substances

#85
post #3

Original EPA proposal here: https://www.epa.gov/hw/proposal-list-nine-and-polyfluoroalky... Where they outline the nine PFAS are: - Perfluorooctanoic acid. - Perfluorooctanesulfonic acid - Perfluorobutanesulfonic acid. - Hexafluoropropylene oxide-dimer acid. - Perfluorononanoic acid. - Perfluorohexanesulfonic acid. - Perfluorodecanoic acid. - Perfluorohexanoic acid. - Perfluorobutanoic acid.

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Re: The EPA is proposing that 'forever chemicals' be considered hazardous substances

#86
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, especially with vaccines in the US (and some other places) science doesn’t have to meet that burden because they are indemnified for product liability by the government by law.

Good thing I'm not in the US then.

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Re: The EPA is proposing that 'forever chemicals' be considered hazardous substances

#87
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of care goes into their disposal or recycle. Are you aware of the usage of PFAS in textiles, food packaging, and waterproof-treated goods? I'm a little confused what you mean by care goes into their disposal. PFAS treatments on textiles for example are disposed of by pouring down a washing machine drain into municipal sewers and from there into natural waterways. Because of the "forever", small amounts add up…

So what is the impact of this proposed EPA ruling on ordinary people disposing of ordinary household items like those you describe? Will we all need to have hazmat plants installed in our sewage lines? Will we no longer be able to wash our clothes in washing machines? Will we have to segregate all our trash and pay for our community to have a hazmat disposal truck come around along with the regular trash truck?

No. No. And Maybe. Like most EPA regulations they will be enforced on the manufacturing/commercial side first. I'm not sure if you're being facetious or just disengenuously attacking regulatory agencies. If you're legitimately concerned, I apologize. On the bright side, you can rest easy.

Re: The EPA is proposing that 'forever chemicals' be considered hazardous substances

#88
post #80
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know what the word "chemical" means? We do need to be a bit more specific than that, or we're not gonna get anywhere. Also, once we've specified which chemicals shouldn't be dumped, I'd like to include the atmosphere in the list of places where one shouldn't dump them. Seems to be a very popular place to dump really harmful stuff, we should stop that.

> Do you know what the word "chemical" means? This intentional nitpicking of the colloquial usage of the word chemicals is a favorite of both, disingenuous conversationalists who like to take a chance to feel correct rather than participate earnestly, and lobbyists. At least one of them gets paid for it though.

Its hardly a nitpick, you're being so vauge that its impossible to understand what you are actually proposing.

Why not just use more specific language? If indeed everyone is acting in bad faith, using clear language would shut them up. If instead they are being ernest and cannot understand you because of the "colloquial" language, then being rigorous would further your stated goal of ernest participation. Either way seems like a win-win for you.

Re: The EPA is proposing that 'forever chemicals' be considered hazardous substances

#89
post #67

As a society we're going to have to have a come to Jesus moment about all of these estrogenic chemicals that make up the plastics we consume.

It's not just synthetic chemicals. Humanity already can't undo the nuke test fallout layer and the lead from gasoline layer future archeologists will marvel at: "What arrogant dopes, leaving a mark on the entire planet out of negligence."

I mean, maybe not fully, but its mostly back to normal at this point https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Radiocar...

Re: The EPA is proposing that 'forever chemicals' be considered hazardous substances

#90
post #7

We really need a concept of scale when it comes to branding a chemical "toxic". Small amounts for particular purposes are not harmful. Being everywhere may cause some problems.

Humanity is currently set to die off, starting in about 2040, because of falling fertility. Microplastics acts as endocrine disruptors, making everyone less fecund. It is the single greatest existential threat to our species.
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