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EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

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Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#81

Post by [deleted] »

DropPanda wrote: post #55
logifail wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't punish individuals and companies trying to get work done and benefit your economy Getting work done is one thing, why should locals support tax breaks for expats? "Technology companies including ASML Holding NV and Adyen NV called on the Dutch government to maintain a tax break that seeks to attract expatriates to the Netherlands. Ingrid Thijssen, head of the Confederation of Netherlands Industry and Employer…

I live in a Scandinavian country. Our welfare system is structured such that people are expected to withdraw from the tax pool during the beginning and end of life, and contribute to the pool in between. Adult immigrants will benefit less from the system than locals over their lifetime, but may end up contributing as much. Adult immigrants with advanced degrees who come to work here for a few years and then move out…

[deleted]

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#82

Post by selimthegrim »

jacquesm wrote: post #45
audunw wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That doesn't happen without a very good reason. That reason is that ASML wouldn't be in the position it is without USA's early investment into EUV technology, and ASML relies on its own imports from USA that USA could block (not allowed under current US legislation but they could obviously change that if there was enough political pressure). No need for NATO conspiracy theories. USA is a good partner to ASML. Why t…

Yes, that acquisition jumpstarted ASML's present day lead in that domain. But they were the only party in the whole world at the time that could take advantage of that tech. So it was good for everybody but that did mean that some strings got attached. But within NATO ASML is strategic, there is zero doubt about that.

Canon couldn't have?

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#83

Post by vidarh »

IshKebab wrote: post #42
max_ wrote: post #33

This is most likely going to fail. Just like how the EU finance a hundreds of millions of dollars for a Google competitor that we haven't heard of today. [1] [1]: https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/07/eu-approves-16...

Yeah I've worked in a couple of startups in the UK now that I was surprised to discover got most of their funding from the EU. E.g. Ultrahaptics (which was an obviously flawed idea) got most money from Horizon 2020, not customers. Kind of weird that these wastes of money are never in the news, not even during Brexit.

Want to bet you've never heard of most of the companies that benefited from vast amounts of US government research grants that helped lay the foundations for much of the US tech industry?

Most people won't have heard about most the successful companies that resulted from the combination of military spending and research grants, much less the many failures on the way.

If we knew how to pick the successes ahead of time, there's be no point in gov funding, or in venture capital firms, because they'd be able to go into any mainstream bank and loan finance their entire business with regular business loans.

Government research funding almost inherently should have a high failure rate, because they offer the most value where they enable research that is so high risk they can't get funding elsewhere both because of the occasional big win, but also because of the side effects of creating eco systems.

That's not to say that doesn't also lead to lots of stupid projects getting funded, and lots of mismanaged funding programs that deserve scrutiny. But it's also always easier to recognize the stupidity after the fact...

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#84

Post by sunshine-o »

jimnotgym wrote: post #49
max_ wrote: post #33

This is most likely going to fail. Just like how the EU finance a hundreds of millions of dollars for a Google competitor that we haven't heard of today. [1] [1]: https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/07/eu-approves-16...

It's a bit of a weirdly worded article. I think what actually happened was the German government funded it. The EU approved of them doing it, which had to be checked under the EU state aid rules. This is very different to what you stated. https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/28084-eu-clears-state-ai...

At the end it is always the same type of scheme. The search engine story made the news because it sounded so ridiculous.

The EU (and its members) does that for every key technology. For cloud they did it at least 2 or 3 times.

I vaguely remember a bunch of alternative "clouds" were created so they have a sovereign cloud, and then bought back by a big telco linked to the state.

Then the big telco have it managed by Huawei [1]

[1] https://www.orange-business.com/en/press/orange-business-ser...

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#85

Post by suslik »

DropPanda wrote: post #55
logifail wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't punish individuals and companies trying to get work done and benefit your economy Getting work done is one thing, why should locals support tax breaks for expats? "Technology companies including ASML Holding NV and Adyen NV called on the Dutch government to maintain a tax break that seeks to attract expatriates to the Netherlands. Ingrid Thijssen, head of the Confederation of Netherlands Industry and Employer…

I live in a Scandinavian country. Our welfare system is structured such that people are expected to withdraw from the tax pool during the beginning and end of life, and contribute to the pool in between. Adult immigrants will benefit less from the system than locals over their lifetime, but may end up contributing as much. Adult immigrants with advanced degrees who come to work here for a few years and then move out…

I did that (moved to a Scandinavian country), and it was an undeniably poor choice from a financial perspective - or rather a chain of poor choices that looked correct at the time. Paying almost 40% of my income that is rather low by global standards (although very high locally), while not planning to have children and never even once going to a doctor - none of this made any sense in the long run. I am the same age as yourself, and given the economic situation early retirement appears to be less and less feasible.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#86

Post by croes »

throwaway4good wrote: post #11

All the big blocks: EU, US, South Korea, Taiwan, and China assume that their subsidy policies will expand their market share. Obviously they cannot all be right. The only that I think is given that will expand its global market share is China. Paradoxically because of the US sanctions and the fact that it relies so much on imports presently.

But without subsidies they could lose market share

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#87

Post by yread »

dekleinewolf wrote: post #69
EtienneK wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those salaries seem quite low compared to the Randstad. If these are true, then the answer is "Yes"...

Can you name me 3 tech companies in the Randstad that aren't consultancy that pay more than that? I don't think these numbers are exceptionally high but they're not low either. Source: Former SWE, current PM in the Randstad.

Amsterdam's crypto fintech startups buy the souls of juniors for 73K. Juniors!

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#88

Post by georgeecollins »

DropPanda wrote: post #55
logifail wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't punish individuals and companies trying to get work done and benefit your economy Getting work done is one thing, why should locals support tax breaks for expats? "Technology companies including ASML Holding NV and Adyen NV called on the Dutch government to maintain a tax break that seeks to attract expatriates to the Netherlands. Ingrid Thijssen, head of the Confederation of Netherlands Industry and Employer…

I live in a Scandinavian country. Our welfare system is structured such that people are expected to withdraw from the tax pool during the beginning and end of life, and contribute to the pool in between. Adult immigrants will benefit less from the system than locals over their lifetime, but may end up contributing as much. Adult immigrants with advanced degrees who come to work here for a few years and then move out…

>> locally quite high $80k annual income (STEM PhD, 40yo)

I love Europe, both for the lifestyle and the safety net. But the salaries are kind of shocking for an American.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#89

Post by jdietrich »

onion2k wrote: post #79
throwaway4good wrote: post #11

All the big blocks: EU, US, South Korea, Taiwan, and China assume that their subsidy policies will expand their market share. Obviously they cannot all be right. The only that I think is given that will expand its global market share is China. Paradoxically because of the US sanctions and the fact that it relies so much on imports presently.

Obviously they cannot all be right. As a percentage of the market, that's true, but if the subsidies grow the whole market then every block's dollar value of market share can all go up. Every startup learns this lesson quite early on. It's a heck of a lot easier to grow a market by 5% than it is to take 5% of the market from a competitor, mostly because competitors do things to try to stop you.

Sure, but the semiconductor market is mature bordering on stagnant. There's a high-risk/high-reward competition for the leading edge that is currently dominated by TSMC, but there's just not much money to be made from the older nodes that the automotive, aviation and military segments care about. Building out capacity to secure your supply chains is potentially a very sensible strategic decision, but I'll eat my hat if it ever turns a real profit.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#90

Post by apexalpha »

The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down.

If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU.

But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries.

Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting banning the export of ALL machines to outside the EU. I'm just saying they could force companies to also have at least one big fab inside the EU, for geopolitical purposes.

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