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Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

arxiv.org

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Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#81
post #32
post #4

Time to break out John Baez's checklist: https://archive.org/details/TheCrackpotIndex

Never heard of it, but it seems to give a good digest of the format. Unfortunately, it seems aimed at non-academic crackpots. It doesn't even award points for vacuous mentioning Schrödinger or Kant.

I was really turned off by the mention of Kant at first, but reading on it's relevant to the discussion. This is a real scientist applying Kant's idea to real phenomena in a useful way. Please read the paper in detail.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#82
post #5

Can't help but wonder, is AI an expected phase transition in the evolution of life in the universe? Is life really just the larval stage of a higher order intelligence?

"expected phase transition" seems a loaded phrasing, and implies a deterministic evolution, which I really don't think we should assume.

An expected phase transition in this context is stochastic. The transition to order is expected, and there are bulk properties that are the same on each run, but the exact details differ each time.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#83
post #6

> We are, truly, Of Nature, not Above Nature. This sentiment has always made me question when people say things are "unnatural", "artificial", or "synthetic": If we ourselves are of nature, and these things are a byproduct of us, then aren't they naturally occurring? edit: added "synthetic" to reduce ambiguity.

"unnatural" or "artificial" have a very clear meaning: made by the intervention of humans in ways outside our base anatomical functions (so excluding babys or spilled blood). This intervention can be mechanical (Stonehenge), or biological (breeding animals to become more useful to humans), or chemical (synthesizing oil from plastic), or a complex combination of all of them (whisky); it is also transitive: anything cr…

Nothing can be made or manufactured that is unnatural or artificial. By definition, anything that can exist in this universe is naturally part of the universe.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#84
Reading the introductory paragraph to the paper, it sounds like a rehash of Kaufmann's (very good) book "At Home in the Universe", which at this point is almost 30 years old. Not sure what this paper adds, but will read it to find out.

The thesis of Kaufmann's book is that the emergence of life, given supporting conditions (variety of source chemicals in environment, sources of energy, maybe water/mixing) is all but inevitable (hence life being "at home" in the universe) rather than being some rare event.

The reasoning is that when these preconditions are met there will be a variety of chemical chain reactions occurring where the product of one reaction is used as the input to the next, and eventually reaction chains that include products that act as catalysts for parts of the reaction chain. These types of reaction can be considered as a primitive metabolism - consuming certain environmental chemicals and producing others useful to the metabolism.

From here to proto-cells and the beginning of evolution all it takes is some sort of cell-like container which (e.g.) need be nothing more than than something like froth on the seashore, based out of whatever may be floating on the water surface. Initial "reproduction" would be based on physical agitation (e.g wave action) breaking cells and creating new ones.

Different locations would have different micro-environments with different locally occurring reaction chains and "proliferation/survival of the fittest" would be the very beginning of evolution, as those reactions better able to utilize chemical sources and support their own structure/metabolism would become more widespread.

Anyway, a good book and plausible thesis in general (one could easily adapt the specifics from seashore to deep sea thermal vents etc).

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#85
post #8
post #6

> We are, truly, Of Nature, not Above Nature. This sentiment has always made me question when people say things are "unnatural", "artificial", or "synthetic": If we ourselves are of nature, and these things are a byproduct of us, then aren't they naturally occurring? edit: added "synthetic" to reduce ambiguity.

It makes more sense when you realize that unnatural and artificial are societal words akin to immoral or bad. Within that context they are perfectly crumulent words, it's only when we wish to have them be objective outside humanity that they don't make sense anymore.

> societal words

Indeed, all words are "societal." The meaning(s) of a word is/are always a matter of convention (or tradition).

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#86
post #6

> We are, truly, Of Nature, not Above Nature. This sentiment has always made me question when people say things are "unnatural", "artificial", or "synthetic": If we ourselves are of nature, and these things are a byproduct of us, then aren't they naturally occurring? edit: added "synthetic" to reduce ambiguity.

That’s one of those revelations that only sounds profound when everyone involved is really stoned. Outside of that, everyone knows the meaning of “unnatural” and we all get that the colloquial meaning and a strict etymological analysis don’t quite align.

[deleted]

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#87

It's fascinating to me that the complexity of life always goes up. Outside extinction events, complex life generally seems to become more favourable over time. It's interesting that (to my knowledge) we don't see an ecosystem lose complexity in its entirety unless it's dying. Simple organisms make a bedrock for complex organisms, and while the complex organisms have more specific needs, they are better at exploring,…

I think the trend towards complexity is more just due to more complex things being built out of less complex ones - complexity creates/supports greater complexity, so it's a natural progression.

For higher level animals complexity may also be more inherently favorable since it supports a more customized environmental "fit", and helps in the predator-prey arms race.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#88

I sat in on one of Stephen Wolfram’s YouTube lectures on his new physics project, and asked him about his conception of life in the big picture of physics. His perspective was that (if I may take the liberty of paraphrasing him) there’s nothing particularly special about life from the perspective of physics. What we call life simply correlates to parts of the physical world that have the highest degree of complexity…

Are you sure he didn't think you were only referring to the cellular automata rule?

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#89

It's fascinating to me that the complexity of life always goes up. Outside extinction events, complex life generally seems to become more favourable over time. It's interesting that (to my knowledge) we don't see an ecosystem lose complexity in its entirety unless it's dying. Simple organisms make a bedrock for complex organisms, and while the complex organisms have more specific needs, they are better at exploring,…

Check out the work of Ilya Prigogine - he won a Nobel prize in the 70's for his work on self-organizing complexity. There is a selection force in the universe for increasing complexity, being driven by the dissipation of energy. When you have systems in non-equilibrium, there is a strong pressure to explore the possibility space to find ever more efficient ways to dissipate energy.

A bacteria the size of a grain of sand dissipates much, much more energy than the grain of sand, and so there is a very strong "preference" for bacteria in this regard.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#90
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine anything backing that up lends some credibility to the true believers, likely why this poorly written paper has made it to hn. A rule of thumb around here is I often measure my salt grain size by how self-important the article makes hners feel.

Well it's true, or not, regardless of how any of us feel about it. It's just fun to wonder.

>Well it's true, or not, regardless of how any of us feel about it

Yes, but not with the same probabilities of being true in both cases (the cases being whether we feel good or bad about it).

Something makes it to HN because HNers like it. And not true things (feel good articles and popular sentiments) are more likely to be liked while not being true, compared to true but not likable stories.

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