Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

smithsonianmag.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 403 posts

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#81

Post by adrian_b »

nerdponx wrote: post #47
wirrbel wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Historian Richard Rutt conservatively suggests that knitting originated in Egypt between 500 and 1200 A.D. Haven’t watched the video but the evidence for knitting in England under Roman rule certainly isn’t there. There were other methods to make knitting-like garments though so maybe this is explained in the video but I doubt that Romans knitted with this

I never considered that knitting might be so relatively new. Knitted wool clothing seems like an essential item for staying comfortable in cold wet weather. Did Europeans just rely on furs and skins before then?

No, they used woven wool garments (or felt).

Any Roman male would use only woven wool clothes. Thinner fabrics, like linen or expensive imported silk or cotton were normally used only by women. Men who used them were derided as effeminate.

Moreover, knitted wool is mostly suitable only for undergarments, as it does not offer enough protection against water and wind.

Knitting provided more comfortable clothing, but it was not a necessity. There is no surprise in its late development.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#82

Post by mc32 »

bregma wrote: post #50
zilti wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is CE the same as AD?

Yes. It's the plain English version of "AD", which is Latin. English was good enough for Jesus in the Bible to speak, so it should be good enough for the rest of us instead of this high-falutin' shibboleth language they only teach at the likes of Oxford and Cambridge.

Uhhhhm my high school had it as an elective, and it was no Oxbridge school. Over the last few decades Latin has been defunded though.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#83

Post by mc32 »

gboone wrote: post #61
rickcecil wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CE means “common era” which refers to the same time period that AD does, which stands for Anno Domini and means “the year of our lord,” which is rooted in the Christian faith. You will also see “BCE” and it means Before Common Era, which replaces BC, which means “Before Christ”. The newer terms are more inclusive.

> The newer terms are more inclusive. To me it seems to exclude the only person referenced in the original form.

You’re right. It’s the nature of things, being inclusive often means excluding an other.

On the other hand I’m glad we’ve all converted on one common reference for dates and don’t have one for each sphere of influence, cuz then something published in China vs Japan vs Taiwan vs Europe and the Americas vs Egypt vs… who knows what would be messy.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#84

Post by INTPenis »

yendor wrote: post #79
INTPenis wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just doesn't work for me for two reasons, they would have been recycled almost immediately as all metals were relatively precious, and why don't we find as many other training pieces? And of course it goes without saying that they've appeared made out of non-metal materials.

They wouldn't be recycled if they were also used as a credential for quality of work. If you're a metal worker who wants to migrate to a new town, and wants to work at my forge, how do I know you can do quality work? Sure, these could be stolen but I'm assuming a master metal worker knows the right questions to ask to verify it's legitimate.

I don't think ancient roman society worked that way. Traveling is expensive first of all, carrying stuff if even more expensive. You carry what you need, not metal trinkets.

And also your reputation is based mostly on word of mouth. That's how it still works in rural societies today.

If there were any such certification for metalurgists it would have been a small one like a ring or a bracelet.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#85

Post by INTPenis »

ransom1538 wrote: post #74
INTPenis wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just doesn't work for me for two reasons, they would have been recycled almost immediately as all metals were relatively precious, and why don't we find as many other training pieces? And of course it goes without saying that they've appeared made out of non-metal materials.

Yes and no. I respect the "they would have been recycled" argument, but, there would still be some . If you were good enough to cast a Dodecahedron, you are probably rich enough to keep your best one, to show off to all the new hipster kids.

Any metal we find after 2000 years is a miracle. So the amount of these dodecahedrons indicate that there were a lot more in circulation at the time.

2000 years of poor and homeless people looking for any metal they can sell as scrap.

That's why I don't buy the apprentice argument that always pops up in these discussions.

In this case you'd be excused for saying it's some sort of ritualistic object. Because rituals are important in people's lives, important enough to create and carry around metal and stone objects with you. And rituals pervade all of society.

I don't claim to know what it is, but I think it was either very important to some ritual, or very practical to some trade.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#86

Post by blah-yeah »

My guess:

Wax, wooden, or cork plates plugged into each side via the large holes.

On the the replaceable plates were some sort of painted or engraved label, indicating something such as:

- a dice or other game piece

- a fortune or God (some other mythical image)

- some other game of chance type option

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#87

Post by nemo »

mrob wrote: post #10

I like the theory that it's an examination piece to qualify as a master metalworker. Casting a flawless dodecahedron could have been a way to demonstrate your skill. The shape is somewhat arbitrary: anything that's both difficult to cast and easy to examine for quality would work, but once people started making dodecahedrons that's what people expected and it became a kind of standard.

One thing to keep in mind is the geographic distribution of these things. They're mostly found in the province of Gallia and Britain, and not in other regions. There'd be a lot of metalworkers in Rome and the surrounding cities in central and south Italy, but no artifacts like this have been found, and they've found > 100 of them now so the distribution is probably significant.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#90

Post by godshatter »

anentropic wrote: post #22

A theory I saw recently suggested that they may have been used to hold candles, as night lights (could still have had some religious or ritual component too). The holes all being different diameters would then relate to different sized candles being needed to last all night, for longer and shorter nights at different times of the year. The twelve faces presumably corresponding to 12 months on the Julian calendar, whi…

The pegs do seem to lend themselves to steadying the object on a flat surface, placing one side up and one side down. This would make it easier for standing something up on the top side like a candle or letting something on the bottom side through (not sure what).

If this were a candle holder, then it doesn't make a lot of sense. Wouldn't a candle just slip through to the bottom side, losing much of it's length inside the dodecahedron? It also doesn't do anything to help if the wick gets too long and the wax runs down the side. The variations on diameter of the holes makes me wonder if it wasn't a stand for a pole of some kind to stand upright. The different diameters of the internal holes would correspond to different sizes of poles to hold up. Maybe it's a flag holder or something similar?

Post reply on HN