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Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)

behavioralscientist.org

81–90 of 135 posts

Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)

#81

I don't believe Americans are fake, but I do believe that Americans are trained since an early age to display at all times that they're not a threat, and that is kind of sad.

I would hazard that this is a function of our Wild West/Frontier culture. America had individual gun ownership since inception. Unlike Europe where lethal weapons/training were not available to every level of the social strata. America was a free-for-all for a very long time with very different cultures clashing constantly. You did not want to present as a threat in a world like that. I wonder if this is still common in less developed countries where life is cheap and access to lethality is easy.

More contemporarily, I can speak specifically to black culture- if you're black interacting with white strangers in a foreign environment, you may find yourself being overtly friendly to strangers simply as a means to compensate against any potential stereotypes. I'm sure being a minority in any situation can elicit this reaction though, including being a white minority. And I've also experience d the opposite, where I'm a "white" minority- and I had to simultaneously present myself as not being a threat, but also not an easy victim.

Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)

#82

I have a long history of trouble with intimacy and long-term relationships, and as a result, I live alone and rather isolated. I have a few friends on FB and others who I email on a regular basis, and I try to cultivate closeness with them as much as electronically possible. But many of my social interactions are based in commerce. So I'll go to a restaurant to eat, alone. I'll go grocery shopping, alone. And so the…

As someone who worked a long time in service (not in America, in the anecdotally much more socially cold Germany) I was friendly and welcoming to all customers (unless I had a really bad day for some reason, so about 95% of the time) and I always meant it. It just makes your work much more fun and time pass faster than being sullen and distanced. It hs nothing to do with my wages being on the line, I literally had ze…

Thank you for sharing.

Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)

#84

I wonder if the dutch history is why most new yorkers seem to be very direct. There are definitely different regions of America that pull the fake thing more than others (one example I can think of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bless_your_heart )

As someone from "Bless your heart" country, there is nothing fake (or secret) about it. It is used in two context and everyone there knows exactly which one is meant when directed at them or others.

A passive aggressive dig, or, a genuine statement of care. However, I can definitely see how people who did not grow up around it may see it as fake or weird or question intent.

Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)

#85

> Thank you for dinner” felt to me as an act of distancing Is this really? I am French so we are rather private (in the sense that friendship is something that takes time, and before that there are rather generic interactions). But if my best friend whom I adore and whatnot did a dinner for me I would thank him very much. I wild be surprised if "thank you" is not used between friends in the Netherlands

I think part of the reason was what was missing:

> I would have liked my guests to say that they were looking forward to spending more time with me, that they really liked the evening together, or that they felt happy or connected to me.

As a Dutch person, I think saying "Thanks for dinner, was fun!" is fine, but I could see how saying just the first part, or focusing too much on the effort spent on the food, could make me suspicious, as if that was the most positive thing that can be said about the evening.

Also, I think it's quite common to exchange a few words about when one might meet next, either concretely ("See you at X event?") or vaguely ("Let's meet again sometime soon!"). If it's left out, one might suspect the other party doesn't want to meet again, perhaps.

Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)

#86
As an American living in America, I've had a hard time fitting in to many social situations because it's difficult for me to "be fake", and it feels very awkward when people "act fake" with me. I appreciate some aspects of American social culture, but the forced "niceness" and fake compliments/questions irk me.

My ideal style is somewhere between Dutch directness and American friendliness - mostly direct, but with a generally more "positive" affect than the "neutral"-seeming Dutch approach, and more open to having friendly interactions with strangers without being "fake".

Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)

#87
post #44

As a Frenchman, when I worked in the valley, people told me to tone it down, that I could come off as rude. On my side, I wanted to slap those people calling others they barely knew "friends", overselling their lunch as "amazing", assuring an outcome with certainty, virtue signaling or refusing to say when something was completely wrong. It's like they were always in a tiny marketing process. Eventually, I learned to…

People in the valley seem to be quite different from people in the southern states (the only part of the US that I have been to). I wonder if the differences within the USA are actually be as significant as the differences between parts of the US and Europe.

Reading through the article, I very much sympathized with the author's Dutch attitudes towards American mannerisms. And I'm American.

All of my life I've felt at a distance from others who exhibit typical American social habits, and have actually got along better with people from various other cultures such as eastern Europe. (There are a lot of first and second generation immigrants from eastern Europe where I live in the US.)

I have always been perceived as rude and blunt, and in recent years those with typically American social attitudes have even begun pathologizing behaviors like mine as being "on the spectrum".

As to why I am like this was a mystery to me in childhood. I acted just like my family and extended did! Everything was normal at home, and then I would treat someone at school like I would treat a sibling and it would result in arched eyebrows.

Turns out my family's attitudes towards socializing were strongly influenced by my mother, since she was a stay at home parent. And she came from a part of the US made up of small agricultural communities that were mostly German and Dutch in origin. These small communities had transplanted their national cultures in little bubbles all over the US, and by dint of mostly isolation from the broader culture had maintained those mores for centuries.

It was only when my mother had moved away to the city that this culture shock occurred, about 150 years after immigration.

So yes, there is a lot of cultural variation in the US, probably not as much as in Europe, but it exists. There are subcultures within the US of various vintages that exist alongside the mainstream culture that have all learned how to be different and coexist at the same time.

Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)

#88
post #69
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point is is that it’s not fake, it feels fake to us, and we (I’m Dutch) are not rude, it feels rude to Americans. We value different things. They are trying to be nice by making compliments, we try to connect by being brutally honest (orthogonal but both positive?). I can tell you our Dutch waiters can learn a thing or two from their US counterparts about service (well maybe it’s also because we hardly tip,…

tipping in my opinion is rather rude. as a bussiness, you are basically asking for a handout to make the lives of your waiting staff bearable. In my opinion this mean you should not run a business. Why would i tip someone when they do their job? Should we do this for all jobs? (the same goes for the military in my opinion).

I am (or was) fundamentally against tipping, and I agree that people should simply get paid to do their job.

However, I've followed the debates occuring in the USA as a handful of restaurants have experimented with no-tip policies, and I am now really ambivalent about the practice. Several restaurants with owners who sounded very committed to end tipping have returned to it; I've read remarks from many waitstaff who say that they prefer and can make far more that way than they would ever be paid on a salary.

I don't think there's a clear answer. My gut still tells me that it's a bad idea, but I do not want to ignore stories from those actually working in and around businesses where this is a thing.

Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)

#89
A while back we spent 5 weeks in the US, visiting a handful of states (California, Arizona, Nevada etc). The people we met were universally polite and often kind (except for one drunk English guy). A random person on a bus noticed we were tourists and spent ages giving us recommendations for local things to do; retail workers would notice our accent and ask about the bushfires (this was late 2019 when half of Australia was burning).

However, pretty much the whole time it felt a bit like we were being boisterous in church. As polite as everyone was, it felt at least in part fake; like they were a bad actor over-playing a role; like they were tolerating us but wished we'd just shut up and leave. Conversations felt shallow - if I actually responded with anything of substance about the bushfires, for example, they seemed to lose interest immediately. There was a sense of guardedness that meant I could rarely tell when anyone actually thought. Australians are typically rather... open in that respect.

As we were lining up to board our flight home, I heard groups of other Australians talking and instantly let of of a tension I hadn't realized I was carrying. Like I'd walked out of church and was allowed to act normally again.

Re: Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)

#90
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in the valley seem to be quite different from people in the southern states (the only part of the US that I have been to). I wonder if the differences within the USA are actually be as significant as the differences between parts of the US and Europe.

When I first visited the US in 1981, I was pretty convinced (as a young, naive and somewhat ignorant Brit) that the differences between someone from New Orleans and someone from Portland, Maine were far greater than anything you could find between any two parts of Europe. Decades later, that's clearly an exaggeration or just plain wrong, but it is certainly true that people do underestimate cultural differences withi…

I don't think people overestimate the cultural difference between Finland and Italy for example, they are extremely different.

The language barriers makes Europe much more culturally diverse, but also makes that diversity much harder to discover since you can't fully understand a culture without learning its language.

It is more like the cultural difference between Canada and Mexico, you don't have such a wide spread within USA. You have some parts that is more like Canadians, and some parts more like Mexicans, but Mexico to Canada is still a bigger cultural leap than anything within USA.

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