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Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

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Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#81

Post by redserk »

ipaddr wrote: post #58
danpalmer wrote: post #24

This is why we need unions. Layoffs are unfortunately, sometimes, necessary. But when they happen, it's important that the right people are chosen, for the right reasons (whether that's performance based, voluntary, protecting certain groups, ensuring fairness, etc). That requires collective bargaining by representatives who are able to assess and change the criteria, and who are able to negotiate for better outcomes…

The right reasons in a union are how long have you been part of the union. I don't support protecting certain groups. I don't agree with forcing fairness which is a personal judgement anyways. I don't even agree layoffs are necessary here. They are easy. A union doesn't stop layoffs it just costs everyone more. Your best representative in a layoff is a lawyer and a place with better employment notice pay.

Who said anything about unions stopping layoffs?

GP said they can negotiate who gets laid off and what happens to those who do.

Unions can be an entirely appropriate and reasonable party.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#82

Post by danpalmer »

outside1234 wrote: post #69
beanjuiceII wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I think what the OP probably really wants is something like Germany’s workers council which is given a chance to weigh in on layoff decisions like this to make sure they make sense

Yep that would also be a positive step. I think unions, when implemented well, might be a bit better, but it seems like Germany gets many of the same benefits I'm thinking of from their workers council mechanism.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#84

Post by jerlam »

brycelarkin wrote: post #9
paiute wrote: post #8

Well, this is interesting. But mostly because cloudflare is doing layoffs, but it sounds like they are trying to fire people instead. Not sure why

Is “firing” 50 people different from “laying off” 50 people?

Layoff usually means the positions no longer exist, and cannot be refilled.

Firing means that the person is removed from the position.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#85

Post by belltaco »

paul7986 wrote: post #47
thrtythreeforty wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's not arguing to change the outcome, she's arguing to call out the hypocrisy/bullshit. In some sense it's pointless, yes; in some other sense, you deserve an argument if you don't deal straightly with the person you're laying off.

[flagged]

Virginia(where she lives) is a one party state, so it's certainly legal.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#86

Post by neilv »

I have personal wiki pages for companies, where I record things like interesting HN posts about them, notes about their products, and a log of recruiting interactions. All on one page.

Were I to pull up this company's wiki page while talking with a recruiter, this video is like, on a first date, someone being rude to the waiter, while they smile at you. Strong signal about what they truly are.

In this case, a stereotypical big corporate-bureaucratic drone company that absolutely doesn't care, and will toss you aside in an instant, in a Kafkaesque manner, while blaming you. With the effect of beating you up and stressing you more, on your way out -- disrupting your job-hunting, possibly unemployment insurance, and health.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#87

Post by judge2020 »

IvyMike wrote: post #25

I get why Brittany's mad: Cloudflare appears to be handling this about as bad as possible. But those two HR randos aren't gonna have anything worthwhile to say, either. I don't want to be judgmental of Brittany because it's a sucky call to have to take. But my recommendation in this situation is to say "I disagree with that assessment of my performance, but I understand you are terminating my employment. What details…

Presumably these Cloudflare HR employees do have the data for why this person was laid off, and they might even have it in front of them, but yeah legally they can't give them any more specifics.

As far as I'm aware, evidence of good performance could be used to strengthen their case to collect unemployment (if Cloudflare tries to fight Brittany's unemployment claim); it could also be used as evidence in a discrimination lawsuit. But given that Brittany said that many other team members also got invited to 15 minute calls with HR, there's good evidence that CF didn't discriminate, but it's also evidence that this could've been a mass, quiet layoff.

Although it sounds like the simple fact that her clients backed out at the last minute could be enough evidence for poor performance, even if the sales were entirely managed properly before that point.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#88

Post by RHSeeger »

jbverschoor wrote: post #46
paul7986 wrote: post #42

It's illegal to record others without their consent! Thats the law. Definitely sucks being laid off but doing such and then posting it online showing your face not very smart!

Nope it’s not. It’s illegal to record a conversation where no participant is aware of the recording. She is aware, so it’s all fine

There's many places where everyone on the call being recorded must consent.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#89

Post by Aurornis »

danpalmer wrote: post #53
Aurornis wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person in this TikTok admits to having closed zero sales. They're also one of the most junior people on the team (4.5 months). They would be among the first to go under union rules, too. Unions are often worse at prioritizing things like tenure over performance, if anything. But even under those rules she was one of the most junior people. There is basically no situation where a union would have prioritized this…

Outcome, perhaps. But a union would have likely a) given a better timeline than a 15 min call with notice sent informally around colleagues, and b) a concrete mechanism for prioritising roles for elimination that should feel fair in some way, rather than an opaque "bad performance" reason that does not correlate with the employee's experience. They had no signed contracts, but with onboarding, the ramp up, and holida…

> and b) a concrete mechanism for prioritising roles for elimination that should feel fair in some way, rather than an opaque "bad performance" reason that does not correlate with the employee's experience.

The employee admits having closed zero sales. It doesn't get much more objective than that.

They're also relatively new to the company. Unions tend to prioritize tenure over performance anyway, so their relative newness might have put them at an even higher disadvantage under a union.

> You're right that tenure is a common way of deciding who is going, but if HR had come in and said "we're really sorry but we're letting go the most recent joiners, no reflection on you other than your start date, you'll get a good reference based on your ramp up performance", that would have gone over much better.

I don't believe this at all. If this had been a TikTok where HR said "We're letting you go because you started recently" everyone would be outraged about them firing people for arbitrary, non-performance reasons.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#90

Post by bananapub »

IvyMike wrote: post #25

I get why Brittany's mad: Cloudflare appears to be handling this about as bad as possible. But those two HR randos aren't gonna have anything worthwhile to say, either. I don't want to be judgmental of Brittany because it's a sucky call to have to take. But my recommendation in this situation is to say "I disagree with that assessment of my performance, but I understand you are terminating my employment. What details…

> But those two HR randos aren't gonna have anything worthwhile to say, either.

companies explicitly construct situations like this such that the person being screwed doesn't have access to anyone making a decision, just other peons implementing them.

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