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Cloudflare lays off new hires

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Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am absolutely for decoupling healthcare from employment (via universal care), and for mandated severance. However, there's a reason that so many - I'll pick on Germany here - German tech leaders move to the US. When firing employees becomes too hard, hiring is risky, giving people broad latitude is risky, and compensation suffers because high comp is risky. If you're a very capable software engineer, it's better to…

> When firing employees becomes too hard, hiring is risky, giving people broad latitude is risky, and compensation suffers because high comp is risky. I don't follow this conclusion at all.

I don’t know if the assertions are true in practice, because I’ve only worked in the US and not Europe, and have never held a tenured position or had a union, but the logic described seemed straightforward enough: if it’s difficult to fire an employee, then you must be more cautious in hiring, because you may be saddled with a poor employee for longer than you’d like. Likewise, empowering employees to take high stakes risks is suggested to be more dangerous if the employer loses the ability to easily let employees go if the employee’s poor judgement causes disaster. (Think sink or swim, give them enough rope to hang themselves — this doesn’t necessarily sound like a great employer.) Finally, offering high salaries is more risky if you can’t let those employees go if they fail to perform. As a counter-factual thought exercise that all seems plausible, we do like our at-will employment here, but no idea if it’s really that difficult to fire employees outside the US — he does make it sound like more of a long term marriage relationship where additional caution is warranted. That all aligns with the uninformed stereotype I have in my mind that the US is more pro business and Europe is more pro worker. While the proposition is internally consistent, I’m eager to hear if it’s sound.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#82
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These things you mention are honestly more examples of fabricated concepts. Are you a religious person by chance?

> These things you mention are honestly more examples of fabricated concepts. Are you a religious person by chance? If you are trying to insult me, you should stop that behavior.

I am genuinely not.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#83
post #62

Possibly stupid question - why are so many companies laying off? According to Wallstreet, the majority of the recession scare isn't a scare. Inflation, while not fully at target, is getting better. Unemployment is at an all time low. So many companies are laying off like it's the worst times ahead. Obviously layoffs aren't taken lightly so there must be some internal signals that really push them to take these measur…

I'm also interested in the responses to your questions, but I would ask something else: are non-tech companies also doing layoffs? I'm not in the US so I'm not really up to date to that.

labor-dependent enterprises are being whispered unbelievably outrageous things from your regular biz consultants (Bain, pwc, ey, etc) about how much money that could save in labor via AI, so some may be cutting heads to fund their AI transformations? I'm not sure that's entirely it though. Many execs have been warning staff of corp austerity measures for a while to bring costs in line. It does boggle the mind though, as many of these same companies are all hitting record revenues (due to inflation).

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#84
I don't understand why Cloudflare can't just be honest and say the reason she got laid off, instead of making up some garbage about her performance. That was her main complaint, and I side with her completely. She was not asking to keep her job, or asking unreasonable questions. If they just explained that it was because the company overhired, or because they needed to reduce costs to keep the company afloat, that would have been fine.

What matters here is trust. I'm glad she posted the video because it really sheds a light on awful corporate American Big Tech practices. Everyone who is considering working at Cloudflare or similar in the future will see how they treated her, and let that factor into their own decisions.

And I see some sexist comments about her being "emotional." If I were in the same position, I'd be pretty fucking pissed off too. I think she has every right to be angry, and these faceless corporate drones feeding her an empty list of platitudes make it worse.

Edit: my comment is in response to the Tiktok video, which isn't directly linked: https://www.tiktok.com/@brittanypeachhh/video/73223013131344...

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#85

Possibly stupid question - why are so many companies laying off? According to Wallstreet, the majority of the recession scare isn't a scare. Inflation, while not fully at target, is getting better. Unemployment is at an all time low. So many companies are laying off like it's the worst times ahead. Obviously layoffs aren't taken lightly so there must be some internal signals that really push them to take these measur…

If you read the layoff threads from the last 24 hours a few common reasons are theorized

- Investors pressuring for profits, cut costs (too many people hired during Covid, total salary bill too big to justify right now). One company does it, other companies may be pressured to drive up stock prices

- Money is expensive, - Section 174 possibly, companies can't write off entire salaries for engineers as easily to offset revenue, corporate tax bill increases. It was apparently an unexpected (people didn't expect it to pass) tax bill from 2017 that came into effect in 2022(or 23, idk)

- The sudden increase in layoffs this week could be due to a backlog over past month+ as a layoff in January looks less bad vs a layoff in December (holidays)

- Companies following the lead of other companies (CEOs not thinking for themselves, just looking at what others are doing) -- I don't think this holds, previous points make more sense

Most companies never state real motive, besides (now considered meme responses on HN?) like "we/I take full responsibility", overly generic "we over hired", or "due to (macro)economic conditions". So as far as I've seen it's mainly people guessing at the reasons.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#86

Possibly stupid question - why are so many companies laying off? According to Wallstreet, the majority of the recession scare isn't a scare. Inflation, while not fully at target, is getting better. Unemployment is at an all time low. So many companies are laying off like it's the worst times ahead. Obviously layoffs aren't taken lightly so there must be some internal signals that really push them to take these measur…

I have no credentials to provide an informed opinion, but in my industry of gamedev where layoffs are currently widespread and massive, the consensus seems to be that the past 3 years saw unprecedented hiring growth due to covid etc and it has caused an otherwise "normal" consolidation cycle to be way larger. For me I think it rings true - I don't think some dark storm is coming it's just the tide going back out after a big spending spree.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#87

This seems to be consistent to what was mentioned last year ( May 2023 ) on investor day. https://softwarestackinvesting.com/cloudflare-net-q2-2023-ea... section: profitability The idea, a year ago, was to replace underperformers in sales by average performers, this impacted ~ 100 people early 2023. Fast forward today, this seems to impact those that were expecting to reach average sales, they probably were also unde…

No matter how we try, half our salespeople keep performing worse than the median. It's intolerable.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#88
post #53

Plenty of these on LI today unfortunately. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/skoroleva_opentowork-techsale... https://twitter.com/BowTiedPassport/status/17451497589921956...

Yikes on that second link, I seriously hope she told them she was recording the call or she may run into some two-party consent issues.

Her Linkedin says she's in Atlanta. Either way, I doubt she will get severance after that and if Cloudflare wants to make a point they could try to go after her for a violation of the companies NDA/confidentiality she signed when she was hired by recording that and sharing it on the net.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#89
post #62

Possibly stupid question - why are so many companies laying off? According to Wallstreet, the majority of the recession scare isn't a scare. Inflation, while not fully at target, is getting better. Unemployment is at an all time low. So many companies are laying off like it's the worst times ahead. Obviously layoffs aren't taken lightly so there must be some internal signals that really push them to take these measur…

I'm also interested in the responses to your questions, but I would ask something else: are non-tech companies also doing layoffs? I'm not in the US so I'm not really up to date to that.

The layoffs are widespread. For example, Dominos just laid off 1,200 drivers.

However discussions about the economy's health become particularly politicaly charged during an election year. So any conversation about the state of the economy, whether it's perceived as good or bad, inevitably carries political implications in this context.

Edit: it is not Dominos it is Pizza Hut https://www.sfgate.com/food/article/pizza-hut-drivers-layoff...

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#90

Possibly stupid question - why are so many companies laying off? According to Wallstreet, the majority of the recession scare isn't a scare. Inflation, while not fully at target, is getting better. Unemployment is at an all time low. So many companies are laying off like it's the worst times ahead. Obviously layoffs aren't taken lightly so there must be some internal signals that really push them to take these measur…

My feeling is that the proximate cause is a correction of the outsized growth in 2020-21. The industry collectively overshot so far that they can’t just slow hiring but actually have to lay off.

In my bigcorp I observe a pivot toward a sustainable pace of growth and significantly tighter scrutiny on costs and efficiency despite working in a growing area of the business.

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