Minimum Wage Clock • Hacker News Board

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#81

Post by AlexandrB » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 9:44 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #51

renjimen wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is hard due to all the monopolies that exist in the modern world, and it's only possible for B2C businesses. The entire value chain is dominated by B2B where consumers have little say. I love System76 but their components are still from mega corps with stupid CEO salaries. The only effective ways to deal with this are progressive taxation and labor regulations. Bring back the 90+% top tax bracket that Thatcher a…

I'm still unsettled on the balance between unequal pay, and treating the government as the only redistribution solution (ie taxation). I do prefer market solutions that Charity/Philanthropy offer vs governmental spending. And sometimes I think about how many of the richest have a 100% tax bracket as they've pledged their fortunes to charity after death. Probably seems contradictory to my parent comment, but as I said…

> And sometimes I think about how many of the richest have a 100% tax bracket as they've pledged their fortunes to charity after death.

That's not the same as a 100% tax bracket, because those resources are free to be deployed while the person is still alive. Also, with charity, the devil is often in the details. The Bill & Melinda Gates foundation, for example, is focused not only on helping stop disease in disadvantaged countries but also encouraging stronger IP protection in medicine[1] and pushing for privatization of education[2].

Charitable organizations can be conduits for transforming economic power into political power. This is not the same as a tax.

[1] https://newrepublic.com/article/162000/bill-gates-impeded-gl...

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/06/19/bill-mel...

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#82

Post by npoc » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 9:44 PM UTC

kimbernator wrote: post #70

npoc wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to be another case of naïve, clumsy legislation causing more problems than it solves.

I don't mean to make assumptions about your life or your conditions, but in scenario A you describe a reality where there are a meaningful number of people who would be content to sell their labor for less than $7.25 per hour. I do not find this believable, given how little that amount is in today's dollars. At the point that you're okay with working for, say, $5/hour, why work at all? What lifestyle permits that as…

In the case of most US states, I think it's fair to say that the minimum wage is moot. As you say, hardly anyone would consider working for less than that anyway. But why take away their freedom to do so?

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#83

Post by doesnt_know » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 9:44 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #13

If we find this appalling, let's stop consuming the products of those who we feel are "overpaid" and visit the website, businessplace, or other endeavors of those we feel are "underpaid". Tim Cook gets paid a lot (and so do many AAPL employees), but I can't help but admit that my last 3 laptops I bought with my own cash were MBP, and not a system76 or framework. And I'm more likely to visit costco than a farmer's mar…

Isn't putting this onto the consumer a little bit of a cop out?

This enormous global system of powerful corporations and nation states crafted this system because it was in their best interest. Feels sort of tone deaf to say "well, you got what you deserved, you created this sytem by buying this specific computer and cheaper food!"

Night/farmer's markets are quite popular here in NZ but we haven't toppled global inquality by visiting them yet and I doubt continuing to do so is going to make a difference.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#84

Post by Shekelphile » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 9:45 PM UTC

CrazyStat wrote: post #17

Shekelphile wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$12-15 today is effectively lower than the federal minimum was 4 years ago. It's a completely disingenuous argument to make that it's acceptable to pay people that little.

Inflation over the last 4 years has been about 20%, not 50-100% as your comment would imply. Source: https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1&year1=201911...

Maybe for people who already owned assets and had a stable living situation before 2020. If you're renting and had to buy anything expensive like a car in the last few years then your costs have more than doubled.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#85

Post by matrss » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 9:45 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #27

cedws wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not a cap, it's a minimum. misphrased, fixed. >This is so people can employ kids who have very little economic value and train them to have lots of it. But 18 year olds are not kids anymore and are capable of providing just as much economic value as a 25 year old. Especially if the employer is a coffee shop or restaurant. Minimum wage should be the same for all ages. It should be at the discretion of the employ…

> But 18 year olds are not kids anymore and are capable of providing just as much economic value as a 25 year old. Especially if the employer is a coffee shop or restaurant. I'm not sure that's true - experience counts in those industries. I speak as a former 18-year-old coffee shop person. I think this is a result of minimum wage not being enough for people who can only get a minimum wage job, but are getting on in…

> I'm not sure that's true - experience counts in those industries. I speak as a former 18-year-old coffee shop person.

You are assuming that age equals experience, but a 19 year old might be working at the coffee shop for a year already when a 25 year old is just starting. Shouldn't the 19 year old have a higher pay then?

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#86

Post by npoc » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 9:45 PM UTC

ziddoap wrote: post #62

npoc wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want that and you aren't producing enough value to warrant it, why should someone else pay for it? Find some more valuable work to do, work harder In the UK you'll get benefits to top up your wage anyway.

This is some "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" bullshit. There are many, many situations where it is simply not possible to just "find more valuable work to do" or to just "work harder" and have it result in more money.

That doesn't mean that enforcing a minimum wage is the correct way to fix the problem. It's not.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#87

Post by scrozier » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 9:45 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #51

renjimen wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is hard due to all the monopolies that exist in the modern world, and it's only possible for B2C businesses. The entire value chain is dominated by B2B where consumers have little say. I love System76 but their components are still from mega corps with stupid CEO salaries. The only effective ways to deal with this are progressive taxation and labor regulations. Bring back the 90+% top tax bracket that Thatcher a…

I'm still unsettled on the balance between unequal pay, and treating the government as the only redistribution solution (ie taxation). I do prefer market solutions that Charity/Philanthropy offer vs governmental spending. And sometimes I think about how many of the richest have a 100% tax bracket as they've pledged their fortunes to charity after death. Probably seems contradictory to my parent comment, but as I said…

Pledging your fortune to charity is not taxation, and calling this a tax bracket is misleading.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#88

Post by NegativeLatency » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 9:46 PM UTC

MattRix wrote: post #79

maerF0x0 wrote: post #13

If we find this appalling, let's stop consuming the products of those who we feel are "overpaid" and visit the website, businessplace, or other endeavors of those we feel are "underpaid". Tim Cook gets paid a lot (and so do many AAPL employees), but I can't help but admit that my last 3 laptops I bought with my own cash were MBP, and not a system76 or framework. And I'm more likely to visit costco than a farmer's mar…

This kind of approach never works except for in the most egregious of situations. Just imagine what the state of car safety would be like if it was purely left up to the market. Regulations work.

This is a great example especially considering how injuries inside cars have continued to drop (which is regulated) but injuries outside of cars have increased (we don't regulate visibility or hood/bumper height for example)

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#89

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 9:46 PM UTC

kimbernator wrote: post #70

npoc wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to be another case of naïve, clumsy legislation causing more problems than it solves.

I don't mean to make assumptions about your life or your conditions, but in scenario A you describe a reality where there are a meaningful number of people who would be content to sell their labor for less than $7.25 per hour. I do not find this believable, given how little that amount is in today's dollars. At the point that you're okay with working for, say, $5/hour, why work at all? What lifestyle permits that as…

[deleted]

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#90

Post by digging » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 9:48 PM UTC

NegativeLatency wrote: post #88

MattRix wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of approach never works except for in the most egregious of situations. Just imagine what the state of car safety would be like if it was purely left up to the market. Regulations work.

This is a great example especially considering how injuries inside cars have continued to drop (which is regulated) but injuries outside of cars have increased (we don't regulate visibility or hood/bumper height for example)

Right. Regulation is what works, but it's not a magic wand. We can't keep allowing industries to write their own regulations without meaningful public input.