Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023 • Hacker News Board

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#81

Post by mahkeiro » Fri, Jan 05, 2024, 6:40 AM UTC

pvorb wrote: post #23

cheriot wrote: post #7

Seems like a misleading headline. Total energy used is at a record low: https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/energy/chart.htm?l=en&... Much of the decline came from gas, presumably because they stopped buying so much from Russia.

And because of the mild weather in the winter season 2022-2023. Also, private households are saving on energy as much as they can because of high prices.

it's not only winter but many industrial processes moved out of Germany because of high energy price. Large chemical plants are just running at minimum capacity: https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/german-chemicals...

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#82

Post by mahkeiro » Fri, Jan 05, 2024, 6:53 AM UTC

blkhawk wrote: post #17

drewcon wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I have the same question. My understanding is they had to bring more coal online to offset shutting down nuclear. What gives?

well.. its actually a bit more complex than that. The TLDR is that the slack of nuclear was picked up by renewables (mostly wind). the slightly more complicated reason is that wind often was kept off in favor of non-throttle-able base-loads like coal and nuclear. Now with the latter out of the picture the slack has to be taken up my either expensive NGAS or wind. NGAS can be throttled somewhat quickly so if there is…

Not sure I get your point in 2019 Germany was producing 123.6TWh of wind energy in 2023 it's 139.8 TWh. Yes it's increasing but it doesn't even start to compensate the total that went from 522TWh to 436TWh. And the wind production capacity increased at the same time from 62GW to 69GW during the same time interval.

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#83

Post by mahkeiro » Fri, Jan 05, 2024, 7:06 AM UTC

locallost wrote: post #68

ViewTrick1002 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of the production in 2023 were to prop up France's ailing nuclear plants? https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/15/business/nuclear-power-fr...

In 2023 nothing because the plants are back online, but last year a lot. Although Germany does traditionally export electricity to France in the winter because France doesn't have enough to cover electrical heating. Not sure what happened this winter.

French wind production is covering the needs currently. During end of December French production was mostly wind + nuclear.

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#84

Post by mahkeiro » Fri, Jan 05, 2024, 7:10 AM UTC

locallost wrote: post #69

qayxc wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sources please. The trade was pretty even between Germany and France as well as between the Czech Republic and Germany [1] The significant imports came from Denmark. [1] https://energy-charts.info/charts/import_export/chart.htm?l=...

Thanks. The irony of that comment is that prices in Europe last year skyrocketed because of the failure of French nuclear. All of the neighboring countries were stuck with the bill of that failure.

Oh really? it had nothing to do with the price of the LNG that went through the roof because of the war in Ukraine and the fact that electricity price are governed by the price of the last capacity called (LNG plants)?

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#85

Post by locallost » Fri, Jan 05, 2024, 9:20 PM UTC

mahkeiro wrote: post #84

locallost wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. The irony of that comment is that prices in Europe last year skyrocketed because of the failure of French nuclear. All of the neighboring countries were stuck with the bill of that failure.

Oh really? it had nothing to do with the price of the LNG that went through the roof because of the war in Ukraine and the fact that electricity price are governed by the price of the last capacity called (LNG plants)?

It was one part of it. The second part of it is the supply was heavily constrained. Countries around France (e.g. Italy and in some parts of the year Switzerland etc.) depended on that electricity too. So when it was gone it really screwed everything up. You are correct that gas is the highest priced and sets the price of all electricity, but it simply wouldn't have been used as much if french nuclear hadn't failed. That's how merit order works.

Re: Coal and fossil fuel use in Germany at a record low for electricity in 2023

#86

Post by locallost » Fri, Jan 05, 2024, 9:23 PM UTC

mahkeiro wrote: post #83

locallost wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2023 nothing because the plants are back online, but last year a lot. Although Germany does traditionally export electricity to France in the winter because France doesn't have enough to cover electrical heating. Not sure what happened this winter.

French wind production is covering the needs currently. During end of December French production was mostly wind + nuclear.

That's great to hear. Energy-charts has data to 2014, and until last winter Germany exported more to France in every winter month except one, I think February 2022 or something.