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Is Bach the greatest achiever of all time?

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Re: Is Bach the greatest achiever of all time?

#81

Post by Aidevah »

motohagiography wrote: post #66

Bach's work would have been lost to obscurity were it not for Mendelssohns rediscovery and promotion of his work about 50y after J.S. Bach's death, and causing a revival that kept the work alive. I'm trying to find good sources for the story as it's part of an example how someone trying to assimilate into european society (Mendelssohn was a jewish convert to christianity, likely to find work) was responsible for defn…

This is partly true. Mendelssohn brought back the great religious works of Bach into the public consciousness (79 years after Bach's death, not 50 years). However, Bach was by no means unknown among the professional musicians, though his fame was of course eclipsed by his sons. If there was anyone who surveyed the breadth of music in the late 18th century, it was Burney, and he gave a very sympathetic treatment of Bach in his General History of Music. The young Beethoven was famous partly for being able to play the entire Well-Tempered Keyboard from memory, and his Op 120 variations were unmistakably composed with Bach's Goldberg variations in mind.

Mozart, who was himself a great master of counterpoint, was understandably delighted by the Bach fugues that Baron Van Swieten showed him. Mozart was of course very heavily indebted to Johann Christian, but several pieces were clearly homages to the elder Bach; the subject from the K. 394 fugue was clearly derived from the first of the WTK, and the K. 574 Gigue (composed in Leipzig, no less) is obviously Bachian pastiche. The armoured men chorus from the Magic Flute sets a protestant chorale (often used by Bach) in a Bachian setting. That's not to mention the string quartet arrangements of Bach's fugues that Mozart made.

Re: Is Bach the greatest achiever of all time?

#83

Post by riwsky »

danielvaughn wrote: post #28

The comment thread on that page gets into Newton and Neumann, but I think artistic/scientific achievements are apples/oranges. Doesn't make sense to compare the two, because the standard of quality is so different. Even within artistic disciplines, how would you compare Bach, Shakespeare, and DaVinci? Shakespeare alone added 1,700 new words to the English language (that we still use today). DaVinci painted so meticul…

Sounds like da Vinci wins, by dint of being both an apple and an orange

Re: Is Bach the greatest achiever of all time?

#84

Post by gyomu »

danielvaughn wrote: post #28

The comment thread on that page gets into Newton and Neumann, but I think artistic/scientific achievements are apples/oranges. Doesn't make sense to compare the two, because the standard of quality is so different. Even within artistic disciplines, how would you compare Bach, Shakespeare, and DaVinci? Shakespeare alone added 1,700 new words to the English language (that we still use today). DaVinci painted so meticul…

If earth suddenly had to be evacuated and I was limited to grabbing the ten best people to save, [Bill] Watterson would definitely be in there. There is a point where you stop rating people — you just rate them among the best. Can I say that Mozart is better than the Beatles? I can’t. I can just say that they both have gone above the cloud layer and are up there near the sun. They both are on that short list of things that are essential. Watterson is an essential.

— Brad Bird, Academy Award-winning director of Ratatouille and The Incredibles

Re: Is Bach the greatest achiever of all time?

#85

Post by smortaz »

Bach is the best proof we have that advanced aliens visited earth and took human shape :). like in that episode of star trek, The Traveler.

and based on the complexity of Fugues he was probably the world’s best multi-threaded programmer too :).

Re: Is Bach the greatest achiever of all time?

#86

Post by AtlasBarfed »

gyomu wrote: post #84
danielvaughn wrote: post #28

The comment thread on that page gets into Newton and Neumann, but I think artistic/scientific achievements are apples/oranges. Doesn't make sense to compare the two, because the standard of quality is so different. Even within artistic disciplines, how would you compare Bach, Shakespeare, and DaVinci? Shakespeare alone added 1,700 new words to the English language (that we still use today). DaVinci painted so meticul…

If earth suddenly had to be evacuated and I was limited to grabbing the ten best people to save, [Bill] Watterson would definitely be in there. There is a point where you stop rating people — you just rate them among the best. Can I say that Mozart is better than the Beatles? I can’t. I can just say that they both have gone above the cloud layer and are up there near the sun. They both are on that short list of thing…

The Beatles are vastly overrated and will die off with the boomers.

Re: Is Bach the greatest achiever of all time?

#87

Post by noch »

wbl wrote: post #62
noch wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> History is written by the victors. The greatest achiever of which work reached us, by the criteria that we pick, of the things we know today, and the "we" changes from culture to culture. I know you imagine that this is a profound observation but unfortunately it isn't. We all have it in our teens and twenties then we realise (decades later if we're unlucky) that it means much less than we thought. We imagine that…

The irony is you are posting this on an article about Bach. For about 200 years if people said Bach they meant C.P.E., not J.S. It wasn't until Mendelssohn performed the St. Matthew Passion that people began to reevaluate their attitudes and Bach assumed the place in the pantheon of composers. How we evaluate music is deeply subjective. The complex harmonic and counterpunctal vocabulary of the Baroque was passe by th…

> How we evaluate music is deeply subjective.

I understand your point. But you're missing my point in order to make a point of your own, about something different. Forest-trees.

Re: Is Bach the greatest achiever of all time?

#88

Post by bluenose69 »

smortaz wrote: post #85

Bach is the best proof we have that advanced aliens visited earth and took human shape :). like in that episode of star trek, The Traveler. and based on the complexity of Fugues he was probably the world’s best multi-threaded programmer too :).

See "Time Pressure", a novel by Spider Robinson.

Re: Is Bach the greatest achiever of all time?

#89

Post by Apocryphon »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #86
gyomu wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If earth suddenly had to be evacuated and I was limited to grabbing the ten best people to save, [Bill] Watterson would definitely be in there. There is a point where you stop rating people — you just rate them among the best. Can I say that Mozart is better than the Beatles? I can’t. I can just say that they both have gone above the cloud layer and are up there near the sun. They both are on that short list of thing…

The Beatles are vastly overrated and will die off with the boomers.

The Beach Boys 4 eva

Re: Is Bach the greatest achiever of all time?

#90

Post by Tao3300 »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #86
gyomu wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If earth suddenly had to be evacuated and I was limited to grabbing the ten best people to save, [Bill] Watterson would definitely be in there. There is a point where you stop rating people — you just rate them among the best. Can I say that Mozart is better than the Beatles? I can’t. I can just say that they both have gone above the cloud layer and are up there near the sun. They both are on that short list of thing…

The Beatles are vastly overrated and will die off with the boomers.

I'm a Xennial and I love the Beatles. I can't think of anyone I know my age who doesn't. My kids love them. Even if the Boomers were peak Beatles they aren't going anywhere for a while.
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