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3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

minnesotareformer.com

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Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#81

Post by Vecr »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #30
monkburger wrote: post #3

This is what happens when the EPA's rules state chemical companies, can more or less, police themselves. We've detected PFOAs in rainwater/clouds, in the artic, etc (See https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.2c02765 ) They are going to lead to further health problems down the road.

This is a huge problem across the board; industry and congress have been steadily stripping federal agencies of staff/budget, authority, etc. Congress long figured out how to kill off regulation that is publicly popular: strangle the agency budget-wise, not appoint new department leaders, etc. Adding ever-increasing paperwork is also popular. OSHA has the lowest number of inspectors in ~45 years. The agency is about…

No reason the ATF needs to exist though, the taxes and stuff like explosives enforcement should be separate.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#82

Post by toomuchtodo »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #20
toomuchtodo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China, there was a case of baby formula execs (Edit: pointed out to me further down thread that the execs were only jailed for 5-15 years with Sanlu's general manager receiving a life sentence, and the people executed very those directly responsible for tainting the product mentioned) knowingly selling product that was harmful and led to tens of thousands of hospitalizations and a handful of deaths. They were exec…

Why is the discussing of death penalty vs prison relevant, when western evecutives never go to prison? Boeing killed 500 people, they knew the plane was faulty, and they suffered no consequence. Untill a CEO of a major corp or a bank thats 'too big to fail' spends a few years behind bars, this whole discussion is just some sort of fantasy revenge fap.

Capital punishment is already legal in 27 states and at the federal level. It’s really about pushing the Overton window to where it is acceptable for corporate harm beyond a certain threshold. Certainly not revenge porn, simply proportionality. Otherwise, malfeasance of this scale will be with us in perpetuity with little to no consequences for those perpetrating it with no remorse. There is a need for genuine limited liability, but also the ability to forcibly pierce that protection for bad faith actors.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#83

Post by orbz »

oakwhiz wrote: post #61
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read once about a corporate death penalty that I think should really be made into law: where a corporate entity commits something so heinous that a fine or what have you is simply not enough. I cannot find the link but the process would go about such as: - The entire entity would be taken on ownership by the government agency at play. No existing stakeholders would be paid anything for this and operations would con…

Sounds like a gift to short sellers.

Wouldn’t this reduce the share price, effectively baking in the externality risk?

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#85

Post by surgical_fire »

Waterluvian wrote: post #4
monkburger wrote: post #3

This is what happens when the EPA's rules state chemical companies, can more or less, police themselves. We've detected PFOAs in rainwater/clouds, in the artic, etc (See https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.2c02765 ) They are going to lead to further health problems down the road.

This kind of self regulation can probably work and be cost effective if you ruthlessly destroy any company found in violation rather than some fine and an apology. Reminds me of criminal punishment in medieval times. Incarceration was a complete economic non-start so the penalties were brutal as a deterrent.

The problem of punishing corporations, is that the people that benefited from misconduct are possibly gone from the company already, and you might be punishing current employees who might even be unaware.

The people responsible for the misconduct at the time need to face criminal prosecution, and their personal wealth has to be first on the line for damage reparations.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#86

Post by justinclift »

nier wrote: post #52
aaomidi wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think death sentence is actually a bit much here. Im generally against death sentences for heat of the moment situations. Think: murder. But in a situation where you’ve had legal teams working with you, where you’ve been planning this out, and where you know what the damage to this is etc., you’re basically a massive threat to society. The active planning, intent, and maliciousness is something that should be…

For me, the death penalty contains traces of mercy and life-long incarceration does not. You take away someone’s freedom for the rest of their life instead of putting them out of their misery.

The quality of that extended life is probably something that needs to be accounted for too.

"Plush mansion, good company, etc" vs "left to rot in a hole" type of thing.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#87

Post by Waterluvian »

surgical_fire wrote: post #85
Waterluvian wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of self regulation can probably work and be cost effective if you ruthlessly destroy any company found in violation rather than some fine and an apology. Reminds me of criminal punishment in medieval times. Incarceration was a complete economic non-start so the penalties were brutal as a deterrent.

The problem of punishing corporations, is that the people that benefited from misconduct are possibly gone from the company already, and you might be punishing current employees who might even be unaware. The people responsible for the misconduct at the time need to face criminal prosecution, and their personal wealth has to be first on the line for damage reparations.

It’s not about punishment. That’s the core of my comment. Make it so horrible for the shareholders and owners.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#88

Post by KyleBerezin »

thedragonline wrote: post #70
acdha wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That one always makes me sad – imagine how different our world would have been if, say, they’d gone to Carter and offered to go public with the data in exchange for help decarbonizing. He’d have gotten his French-style civilian nuclear power program, they’d probably have been able to successfully shift into emerging green industries with their enormous resources, and we wouldn’t have an expensively cultivated anti-sc…

I spent half a decade working with climate data from institutions around the world. There are dragons in those datasets and it is really frustrating to watch denialism at large and have to deal with it personally.

I wish more people were aware of how damaging bad science is, even when it is well intentioned. Environmental studies are often littered with double counting and creative data framing. One faked study does more to convince people global warming is over blown than 100 rigorous studies showing that it isn't.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#89

Post by ddol »

oakwhiz wrote: post #61
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read once about a corporate death penalty that I think should really be made into law: where a corporate entity commits something so heinous that a fine or what have you is simply not enough. I cannot find the link but the process would go about such as: - The entire entity would be taken on ownership by the government agency at play. No existing stakeholders would be paid anything for this and operations would con…

Sounds like a gift to short sellers.

Nationalising the corporation would delist it from an exchange, preventing stock sales.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#90

Post by hinkley »

acdha wrote: post #5

I increasingly think we need personal criminal liability for everyone in the management chain before this will end. As long as you can cash out your options before the reckoning, maybe even spin a division out to go bankrupt, there are just too many people who’ll chase the larger number. You need the guy who gets that internal memo to think that if he doesn’t report it to the EPA, he’ll spend the rest of his life won…

Maybe get Bayer to buy you… I’m looking at you, Monsanto.
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