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More product, fewer product managers

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Re: More product, fewer product managers

#81

Post by wruza »

ChilledTonic wrote: post #9

Barely relevant to the article, but this new trend of AI art as the main image of blog articles drives me absolutely crazy - if you don't have a clear main image in mind when you wrote the article, don't waste my bandwidth downloading a computers pipe dream. I'm all for AI art, it's an incredibly valuable tool - but if your using an AI piece as the only image on the page, it should be for a damn good reason, not just…

Is it any worse than a photo model’s pipe dream about what they are shooting? People on stock photos rarely know anything about the profession or the situation they represent besides basic ideas like looking smart, busy or chatty. They just have to look good at the same time.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#82

Post by subwrmodblocker »

demondemidi wrote: post #67
bjornsing wrote: post #63

I've spent some time interacting with product managers as an engineering manager, or head of a functional area. I've also been "acting" PM for an internal product at a medium size tech company. I think product management entails some of the most important things a company does. But it's really hard work, and many less capable PMs gravitate away from it and more towards either "driving" (i.e. micromanaging) the engine…

“Politics” 35 years in the semi industry. I must be stupid. I really don’t see politics. I see people trying to argue for their option and get support. But I’ve never seen this politics that people complain about. I’m so lucky I guess. Is politics just someone making a better argument that is the wrong technical decision? What is “politics”? Or am I just not at a high enough level (senior principal)?

The semiconductor industry actually does something. In web development it’s 100% political. Around 2018 it became easy enough to do web development at FAANG companies that there’s really no such thing as merit because even the worst employee is as valuable as the best.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#83

Post by lol768 »

alistairSH wrote: post #75
ath3nd wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe in Product Managers or Project Owners as a net good towards building a better product or a better company. The most successful teams I have been in had no dedicated product role, instead, all decisions were made by the developers. My current view is best to remove all type of non technical people or even mildly technical people from the developers' way and let them build in peace.

In that scenario, who is driving product requirements? For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory compliance laws, are you expecting every engineer to be an expert in those laws? And have contacts at the government agencies implementing those policies?

Engineers should ideally be working directly with in-house counsel or external specialists under these circumstances.

This isn't just applicable to some niche organisations working within e.g. finance (though there's likely to be a higher regulatory burden there), engineers need a basic understanding of something like GDPR to do their job because it impacts every organisation handling personal information in any form.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#84

Post by laurels-marts »

alistairSH wrote: post #75
ath3nd wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe in Product Managers or Project Owners as a net good towards building a better product or a better company. The most successful teams I have been in had no dedicated product role, instead, all decisions were made by the developers. My current view is best to remove all type of non technical people or even mildly technical people from the developers' way and let them build in peace.

In that scenario, who is driving product requirements? For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory compliance laws, are you expecting every engineer to be an expert in those laws? And have contacts at the government agencies implementing those policies?

In extremely regulated environments you would typically have someone with legal background to boil down the requirements into their absolute essence and give them to the dev team.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#85

Post by ath3nd »

alistairSH wrote: post #75
ath3nd wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe in Product Managers or Project Owners as a net good towards building a better product or a better company. The most successful teams I have been in had no dedicated product role, instead, all decisions were made by the developers. My current view is best to remove all type of non technical people or even mildly technical people from the developers' way and let them build in peace.

In that scenario, who is driving product requirements? For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory compliance laws, are you expecting every engineer to be an expert in those laws? And have contacts at the government agencies implementing those policies?

> In that scenario, who is driving product requirements?

The developer teams, who else? You build it, you need to know what you are building, right? I find it fascinating that the dev community that gobbled so easily "You build it, you run it", doesn't question why we are not being trusted with knowing and determining what to be built in the first place.

> For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory compliance laws...

How often do you have a Product Manager who is an expert in regulatory/compliance laws and has contacts with government agencies?

Usually the Product Manager is Josh, who just finished uni, and a two weeks product manager course. They will have to ask experts, and then translate that to the devs. It's much more efficient to let the devs ask the experts, which will let the devs themselves become well versed in the domain over time.

I happen to work in a highly regulated industry, and we have an in house law expert, and an in house medical compliance team.

None of these roles are embedded in the development teams though, they are simply asked for advice rather than manage the engineers (which would be insane).

That is how it should be.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#86

Post by allsunny »

alistairSH wrote: post #75
ath3nd wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe in Product Managers or Project Owners as a net good towards building a better product or a better company. The most successful teams I have been in had no dedicated product role, instead, all decisions were made by the developers. My current view is best to remove all type of non technical people or even mildly technical people from the developers' way and let them build in peace.

In that scenario, who is driving product requirements? For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory compliance laws, are you expecting every engineer to be an expert in those laws? And have contacts at the government agencies implementing those policies?

I agree with the point you’re making. I wonder if there’s a disconnect here based on the size and complexity of some of the businesses different commenters are working in.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#87

Post by alistairSH »

ath3nd wrote: post #85
alistairSH wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that scenario, who is driving product requirements? For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory compliance laws, are you expecting every engineer to be an expert in those laws? And have contacts at the government agencies implementing those policies?

> In that scenario, who is driving product requirements? The developer teams, who else? You build it, you need to know what you are building, right? I find it fascinating that the dev community that gobbled so easily "You build it, you run it", doesn't question why we are not being trusted with knowing and determining what to be built in the first place. > For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory comp…

Every time I’ve worked on financial aid, HR, or financials, the PM has been an expert in those areas. I couldn’t do my job otherwise (or, I have to fill their shoes).

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#88

Post by legendofbrando »

gardenhedge wrote: post #76
demondemidi wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Politics” 35 years in the semi industry. I must be stupid. I really don’t see politics. I see people trying to argue for their option and get support. But I’ve never seen this politics that people complain about. I’m so lucky I guess. Is politics just someone making a better argument that is the wrong technical decision? What is “politics”? Or am I just not at a high enough level (senior principal)?

It's possible you've never worked with politically minded people but I doubt it. It can be as small as an engineer broadcasting how hard a problem is before solving it. If they do that, they get the kudos for doing it. If they don't, it just gets done unnoticed.

Most people who dislike political people are failing to place the blame on the right actor. Sounds like this engineer has recognized how to get rewarded at their job and has adjusted their behavior to fit. The actual root problem is that this reward system fails to recognize the quiet everyday progress required to make something great.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#89

Post by alistairSH »

laurels-marts wrote: post #84
alistairSH wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that scenario, who is driving product requirements? For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory compliance laws, are you expecting every engineer to be an expert in those laws? And have contacts at the government agencies implementing those policies?

In extremely regulated environments you would typically have someone with legal background to boil down the requirements into their absolute essence and give them to the dev team.

So you DO have a product manager. You might not call them that, but that’s exactly what they’re doing.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#90

Post by alistairSH »

allsunny wrote: post #86
alistairSH wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that scenario, who is driving product requirements? For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory compliance laws, are you expecting every engineer to be an expert in those laws? And have contacts at the government agencies implementing those policies?

I agree with the point you’re making. I wonder if there’s a disconnect here based on the size and complexity of some of the businesses different commenters are working in.

Probably. My employer has >5000 employees, ~2500 of whom are in the CTO org. We serve an international market, so there’s simply no way for a team of engineers to deeply understand all the regulations that impact their area.
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