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Turing awardees republished key methods and ideas without credit

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Re: Turing awardees republished key methods and ideas without credit

#81
post #78
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He really should be cited. The paper is supposed to give context to the reader, so to not cite a notable paper that is relevant is doing a disservice to the reader and it does seem pretty sketchy to me (I mean only if it's notable, idk who Schmidhuber is).

Sometimes this just happens by mistake. The literature is vast and people rediscover things fairly frequently that they honestly didn’t know existed. The related work section is a good faith effort to contextualize your work in the space of extant works. You will not know every work even seminal ones (it happens, especially if it came out a few decades beforehand), and you don’t have space to include everyone. Someti…

"The literature on this problem is extensive, widely scattered, and not always aware of itself."

Re: Turing awardees republished key methods and ideas without credit

#82
post #59

I can see some angry comments here, but so far I have not seen any facts that refute his claims. Once I spent a long time reviewing a related paper on Hacker News, and I think he is right about disputes B1, B2, B5, H2, H4, H5. I'd have to study the others more closely: B: Priority disputes with Dr. Bengio (original date v Bengio's date): B1: Generative adversarial networks or GANs (1990 v 2014) B2: Vanishing gradient…

In the past few hours I have had more time to look at the entire piece and download some of the referenced papers. So far I haven't found any claim that's factually inaccurate.

I think there is a reason why the ACM Turing awardees have never tried to defend themselves by presenting facts to the contrary: because they can't.

This might get interesting:

> The "Policy for Honors Conferred by ACM"[ACM23] mentions that ACM "retains the right to revoke an Honor previously granted if ACM determines that it is in the best interests of the field to do so." So I ask ACM to evaluate the presented evidence and decide about further actions.

Re: Turing awardees republished key methods and ideas without credit

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> credit belongs to the people who deserve credit for the work they've done that was useful to others Certainly agree. The point is that coming up with the idea, writing it as an equation, or an architecture diagram in a paper, is a small fraction of the effort that goes into making the idea work in a model showing good performance on real life datasets. For example, just taking a random paper that Schmidhuber claims…

I don't buy that this is standard practice in the ML community, and even if it is it's BS. If the basic idea/principle has been published previously but in a different context you should cite it and say why the solution is not directly applicable or has not been evaluated in the current context. Anything else is unprofessional.

Agreed. The piece anticipated this straw man argument:

> "the inventor of an important method should get credit for inventing it. She may not always be the one who popularizes it. Then the popularizer should get credit for popularizing it (but not for inventing it)." Nothing more or less than the standard elementary principles of scientific credit assignment.[T22] LBH, however, apparently aren't satisfied with credit for popularising the inventions of others; they also want the inventor's credit.[LEC]

Re: Turing awardees republished key methods and ideas without credit

#84

List of "famous" ML people not to waste time on: - Gary Marcus - Juergen Schmidhuber - Pedro Domingos - Max Tegmark - Eliezer Yudkowsky Some context for people unfamiliar with ML research: the author, Schmidhuber, is well known for claiming that he should get credit for many ML ideas. Most ML researchers think that: - He doesn't deserve the credit he claims, in most if not all cases. - There's a few cases where his p…

What a troll thing to write. User erostrate taking down the often so-called "father of modern AI" whose work is on erostrate's smartphone :-)

Re: Turing awardees republished key methods and ideas without credit

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Credit belongs to whoever actually makes it work. That is according to whom? Is it a rule you just came up with or accepted practice? And if it's accepted practice, in what community is it accepted practice? Because where I publish and review there's really no such rule and credit belongs to the people who deserve credit for the work they've done that was useful to others.

Basically ideas are a dime a dozen. Sure, your idea might be a good one, but how do we spot your grain of sand is special when it looks the same as the rest of the desert? Essentially having an idea isn't useful to others. Demonstrating that your idea has legs is useful to others. I don't have to deal with citing papers, but I once had to deal with people pitching me ideas, wanting me to sign an NDA, in exchange for…

This is nothing to do with ideas. Schmidhuber is complaining that his published work was plagiarised. In machine learning research, in order to publish your work you have to show that your proposed approach works and to do that you have to beat some benchmarks and establish a new state of the art, otherwise there's no publication. That takes work and that's the work that Schmidhuber claims was inappropriately left uncited. In fact that's exactly the kind of work that Hinton, LeCun and Bengio have always done. That's what machine learning researchers do.

This ... idea that Schmidhuber is an ideas man who's never done any real work is Hinton's allegation, and it's clearly designed to misrepresent both Schmidhuber and his work in order to discredit his complaints. And I'm sorry to say that people on HN have fallen for it hook, line and sinker, I guess because that's what social media says.

Btw, the point I make, that you don't get published in machine learning without beating some benchmarks and establishing a new state of the art, I can attribute that to none other than Hinton himself, in an interview with Wired, whence I quote, by the by:

>> What we should be going for, particularly in the basic science conferences, is radically new ideas. Because we know a radically new idea in the long run is going to be much more influential than a tiny improvement.

https://www.wired.com/story/googles-ai-guru-computers-think-...

So that's the guy accusing the other guy of being nothing but an ideas man and that you don't need to cite someone who first came up with an idea, saying that "new ideas" are important.

But that's just Hinton presenting things just the way he likes. Now ideas are important, now they're not, as he pleases.

Re: Turing awardees republished key methods and ideas without credit

#86
post #30
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is possible that he ought to have been cited as well? It doesn't matter if he's a hypocrite. The justification ultimately has to be, "Our paper did not use your work in any substantial way therefore a citation is not needed." I can see how citations can get very complex for the purposes of scientific credit, traditionally there's a self-policed aspect to it in every academic community; however, in this century…

Whenever you cite papers just because you're "politically supposed to", even though you don't think it's really intellectually useful for anyone to be aware of the cited paper, you're making the citations less useful for everybody. Schmidhuber is only the worst of many abusers of the citation system. Everyone knows that anonymous reviewers are more likely to approve of people who cite their work. Someone is political…

>> Schmidhuber is only the worst of many abusers of the citation system. Everyone knows that anonymous reviewers are more likely to approve of people who cite their work. Someone is politically powerful? Better cite their paper, even though you don't really think it's a good paper and you didn't use it.

The reason that this is not the norm in academia is because there is a substantial number of researchers who care very, very much about academic integrity and even more so about getting their work properly recognised, just like good old You_again.

Btw, "everyone knows" is a running joke in Game of Thrones, it's what the Dothraki always say to show that they're pre-scientific barbarians who believe whatever they like, or at least that's how I get the joke.

Re: Turing awardees republished key methods and ideas without credit

#87
post #78
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He really should be cited. The paper is supposed to give context to the reader, so to not cite a notable paper that is relevant is doing a disservice to the reader and it does seem pretty sketchy to me (I mean only if it's notable, idk who Schmidhuber is).

Sometimes this just happens by mistake. The literature is vast and people rediscover things fairly frequently that they honestly didn’t know existed. The related work section is a good faith effort to contextualize your work in the space of extant works. You will not know every work even seminal ones (it happens, especially if it came out a few decades beforehand), and you don’t have space to include everyone. Someti…

These are good points but Bengio, Hinton and LeCun do not ignore Schmidhuber's work, they just don't cite it.

Re: Turing awardees republished key methods and ideas without credit

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Credit belongs to whoever actually makes it work. That is according to whom? Is it a rule you just came up with or accepted practice? And if it's accepted practice, in what community is it accepted practice? Because where I publish and review there's really no such rule and credit belongs to the people who deserve credit for the work they've done that was useful to others.

> credit belongs to the people who deserve credit for the work they've done that was useful to others Certainly agree. The point is that coming up with the idea, writing it as an equation, or an architecture diagram in a paper, is a small fraction of the effort that goes into making the idea work in a model showing good performance on real life datasets. For example, just taking a random paper that Schmidhuber claims…

[deleted]

Re: Turing awardees republished key methods and ideas without credit

#89
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes this just happens by mistake. The literature is vast and people rediscover things fairly frequently that they honestly didn’t know existed. The related work section is a good faith effort to contextualize your work in the space of extant works. You will not know every work even seminal ones (it happens, especially if it came out a few decades beforehand), and you don’t have space to include everyone. Someti…

"The literature on this problem is extensive, widely scattered, and not always aware of itself."

Is that quote from something? It's funny. I couldn't find any Google result for it.

Re: Turing awardees republished key methods and ideas without credit

#90
post #30
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is possible that he ought to have been cited as well? It doesn't matter if he's a hypocrite. The justification ultimately has to be, "Our paper did not use your work in any substantial way therefore a citation is not needed." I can see how citations can get very complex for the purposes of scientific credit, traditionally there's a self-policed aspect to it in every academic community; however, in this century…

Whenever you cite papers just because you're "politically supposed to", even though you don't think it's really intellectually useful for anyone to be aware of the cited paper, you're making the citations less useful for everybody. Schmidhuber is only the worst of many abusers of the citation system. Everyone knows that anonymous reviewers are more likely to approve of people who cite their work. Someone is political…

Whether Schmidhuber is a bad actor taking advantage of the "system" in general is separate from the specific case I was responding to (not sure if that was your comment or somebody else's.)

But as I said before, we should take the long view. Globalized scientific research ought to have a more neutral way of assessing citations. The 20th century way of doing it may not be the right way any more. I don't see anyone else suggesting a problem of this scope.

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