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A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

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Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#81

Post by JambalayaJim »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #68
mjirv wrote: post #27

> Three out of every four desk workers report working in the 3 to 6pm timeframe, but of those, only one in four consider these hours highly productive. It’s nice to see some data on this. A lot of people talk about a 4-day workweek, but personally I think a 6-hour work day would be better. At least in white-collar jobs, I think most people could fit the same amount of productivity into fewer (focused) hours. Plus a d…

> make things easier for working parents. During the (now semi-aborted) back-to-office push at my employer, several of us pointed out that a 9-5 in the office is impossible for those of us with children and a commute. - 8:00am - earliest free drop-off time at school. - 8:12 or 8:20 - next bus or train to the city. I can probably make that from the school, if I fully sprint for at least half that journey. (Taking a ca…

In this case it just makes sense to have RTO at reduced hours. Make the standard work day something like 10-4.

I never understood why people throw the baby out with the bathwater on things like this.

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#82

Post by teaearlgraycold »

david-gpu wrote: post #17

The years when I was at my most productive, in terms of outputting the most value for my employer (products, patents, etc), I was doing about three hours of "focus work" a day on average. I simply didn't have the energy to do more than that. The rest of my working hours were spent in low-productivity meetings, low intensity emailing, etc. My performance reviews were consistently top-notch and I was getting promoted a…

When I started my new job a month ago I told the founder that generally I've worked 25-30 hour weeks. My references were good enough that he said "Well if that's what it took to make your references that happy go right ahead and continue working those hours".

Reasonable people understand that hours != output.

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#83

Post by JonChesterfield »

ishtanbul wrote: post #35

Investment banker here. The culture of software/tech better valuing work life balance is alluring. Whats described in the article is pretty alien to me. I typically have 4-6 hours of meetings a day (client calls) and am also expected to do 6+ hours of document/email work a day on top of that. I have to do somewhere between 2-10 hrs of work every weekend. It is impossible to keep up, so i am always disappointing someb…

The obvious play is to transition to quant dev at your current place. You'll already have a bunch of software engineers who do their best to guess what the bankers are talking about. Sell your supervision structure on the idea that you work more closely with them with an eye to transitioning. That may take some salesmanship.

If you manage to cross over to quant dev you'll be able halfway to a sane working environment (it'll probably feel very relaxed to you) and at maybe half your current compensation, assuming you get somewhat lowballed while moving. Spend some time there.

You're now a professional software developer. Optionally cross over into a less mental industry to move the work/life balance curve further.

Hopefully you haven't burned everything you've made so far - investment banking is prone to a run of bad luck turning into unemployment, so if you're living paycheck to paycheck you've got an easy way to shed stress by not doing that any more.

Good luck

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#84

Post by JonChesterfield »

kevinmershon wrote: post #69
ishtanbul wrote: post #35

Investment banker here. The culture of software/tech better valuing work life balance is alluring. Whats described in the article is pretty alien to me. I typically have 4-6 hours of meetings a day (client calls) and am also expected to do 6+ hours of document/email work a day on top of that. I have to do somewhere between 2-10 hrs of work every weekend. It is impossible to keep up, so i am always disappointing someb…

With all that salary, keep the job and hire a team of outsourced workers to build the business of your dreams on the side.

700 on a good year is probably 400 after tax and misc breakage. Reasonable dev in cheap country is maybe 100 a year all in? Not obvious to me that any sort of "business of your dreams" can be built by two or three outsourced developers.

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#85

Post by renegade-otter »

a_cardboard_box wrote: post #77
renegade-otter wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working smart vs working hard. Also - optics. Notice how even if you are an early bird and in the office by 9, you are a lazy slacker when you leave at 5? Then someone rolls in at 11 and leaves at 7 - same number of hours. HARD WORKER. People are shallow, visual, and have no attention spans (especially now). You need to be aware of the optics and play them. No, you are not gaming the system - you are getting to the e…

> No, you are not gaming the system - you are getting to the even point of a stupid, unfair one. You are also reinforcing the stupid unfair system. The game is created by playing it.

Not really. Sometimes the option not to play is not there. It's like romantic dating - you can complain all you want about how women do not see the "real" you, but if you don't take part in the dumb ritual and the vanity of it all, you will always lose to someone who plays the game.

That part I said about us being shallow and easily giving into the optics? This is not going to change, as trying to change deeply basic human nature is a fool's errand.

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#86

Post by jondwillis »

Liquix wrote: post #79
renegade-otter wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People regularly walk in from the street just in time for that 10:30 standup. Then it's 11, then they get ready for the day, then it's lunch time. Then it's lunch coma. Then by 3PM they start gaining speed. By that time, I am already exhausted.

To be fair some people have naturally different "peak hours" and sleep schedules. I naturally fall asleep around 1-2AM and wake up at 10. Going to bed earlier involves tossing and turning for hours annoying the SO. Staying up for 36 hours to "reset" works for a couple nights before the schedule drifts back to its natural state. I practice sleep hygiene and have tried cutting out caffeine. Conversely, there's no amoun…

Is “peak hours” a studied phenomenon? I have always assumed it is lifestyle habits and circadian rhythm/inertia. My experience with jet lag makes me think it is the latter.

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#87

Post by jondwillis »

darkerside wrote: post #52
liquidpele wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

11 or 12 EST is common for west coasters obviously… then if their boss is east coast and an idiot they value them being there “late”

Why does that make them an idiot? To see value in overlapping work hours?

Perhaps more coverage (by PST workers) in the later hours of the day (in EST.) “The sun never sets on the org’s productivity empire”

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#88

Post by zero-sharp »

rexreed wrote: post #60
zero-sharp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How will python help him with meetings and emails? This doesn't sound like a technology problem. Not only that, but he's already working crazy hours. And you're suggesting that he spend more time on work? He's asking for ideas on how to make a career transition with the understanding that his salary will most likely get reduced by 90%.

The secret is automation that does things while you're doing other things. Parallel not series. I've even seen people secretly hire foreign virtual assistants to do their low value tasks for pennies while the employee focuses on the higher value tasks.

So I'm assuming that your comment is in reference to me casting doubt on the usefulness of automation in meetings, emails, and other forms of communication.

The point is that there's plenty of high level, technical, and nuanced communication that can only happen between experts. The expertise isn't documented anywhere (unless you count previous email exchanges), it's not somehow represented in a database, and often times decisions are highly specific to one particular situation. Asking a non expert to fulfill this role is difficult enough. I'm not convinced that this is a problem solved by technology.

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#89

Post by jondwillis »

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #74
renegade-otter wrote: post #70

The irony of Slack writing about productivity is not lost on me. "The productivity pit: how Slack is ruining work": https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/5/1/18511575/productivity-sl...

This! If there’s any technology that has enabled and normalized after-hours work it’s got to be slack, perhaps even more so than email.

Pathetic behavior I have observed in myself in the past: unconsciously opening Slack at 8am/11pm after being let go from the job and not even being able to sign in.

Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity

#90

Post by renegade-otter »

ako wrote: post #75
renegade-otter wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People regularly walk in from the street just in time for that 10:30 standup. Then it's 11, then they get ready for the day, then it's lunch time. Then it's lunch coma. Then by 3PM they start gaining speed. By that time, I am already exhausted.

If I get in at 11 it usually means I’ve already done stuff at home, probably between 8 and 10. Getting in late doesn’t mean that they’re starting late.

It doesn't matter if you are working from home or from the office. If I am in the office before 9, many will not know how long I've been there.

VP of engineering who is not on top of the commit activity only sees me there 10 to 5, but they see the dude staying late with them.

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