Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Unveiling secrets of the ESP32: creating an open-source MAC layer

zeus.ugent.be

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 157 posts

Re: Unveiling secrets of the ESP32: creating an open-source MAC layer

#81

Post by crote »

tredre3 wrote: post #42
asylteltine wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I restrict my esps to local network only absolutely no internet access for them. No trust for Chinese products from Chinese companies

> No trust for Chinese products from Chinese companies That's fair but Espressif is wayyyyyyy more open than ANY Western chip maker. The entire framework and toolchains are open-source for one thing. You get listings and sometimes pseudo-code for the internal ROMs (though no code). You get full access to datasheets, technical reference, and sdk documentation. Everything in their SDK is documented. You even get help o…

If I'm not mistaken a very significant part of that is due to hobbyist interest in the chips, not in the least by Sprite_tm (also a HN user, now employed by Espressif).

The ESP8266 essentially started out as a wifi modem, responding to AT commands transmitted over serial, but going from there to a full standalone device relied on a lot of work by enthusiasts[0] and a leaked proprietary SDK[1].

[0]: https://hackaday.com/2014/09/06/the-current-state-of-esp8266...

[1]: https://tweakers.net/reviews/7992/community-interview-sprite...

Re: Unveiling secrets of the ESP32: creating an open-source MAC layer

#82

Post by crote »

throw0101b wrote: post #9
calamari4065 wrote: post #8

Wouldn't this invalidate the FCC certification on the prebuilt modules? You'd have to get certified with this firmware to ensure you aren't violating transmission power requirements. Admittedly, this is a non-issue for hobby scale projects, but is potentially a blocker for commercial applications. I wouldn't say it's necessarily a bad thing, but worth discussion.

> Wouldn't this invalidate the FCC certification on the prebuilt modules? MAC is at OSI Layer 2. FCC concerns about radio power occur at the PHY layer, OSI Layer 1: > On the ESP32, the PHY layer is implemented in hardware; most of the MAC layer is implemented in the proprietary blob. One notable exception to this separation is sending acknowlegement frame: if a device receives a frame, it should send a packet back to…

It's not that simple. Besides implementing a SoftMAC, the blob is also responsible for setting up the PHY, so it would definitely be able to adjust things like transmitting power. See the part describing `esp_phy_enable()`.

Re: Unveiling secrets of the ESP32: creating an open-source MAC layer

#83

Post by dariosalvi78 »

RF_Savage wrote: post #75
finnjohnsen2 wrote: post #13

I wasnt aware of this wifi blob. This feeds a tiny paranoia I have at the back of my head when dealing with esp32/espressif. I have dozens of esp32s around and I love them, but Espressif is 100% Chinese. Im uncomfortable with what I read that every company of significant size in China automatically requires CCP party members to be involved in the company at a high level. So Im very happy to hear people such as these…

It is because of FCC certification requirements. Usually, if the end user can modify the lowlevel radio firmware on the device, the device looses it's FCC certification and cannot be sold in USA. It also seems that Espressif has bought their wifi IP, so their contracts and licensing terms with the IP vendor likely prevent any sharing. But FCC is the reason for closed binary blob firmware for all wifi radios out there…

I don't understand how the license affects certification TBH. As this post clearly shows users can implement their own stack if they really want to, it's not that the license is going to prevent them. Why can't one have an open source stack with specific builds that are approved, tested and certified?

Re: Unveiling secrets of the ESP32: creating an open-source MAC layer

#84

Post by DeathArrow »

finnjohnsen2 wrote: post #13

I wasnt aware of this wifi blob. This feeds a tiny paranoia I have at the back of my head when dealing with esp32/espressif. I have dozens of esp32s around and I love them, but Espressif is 100% Chinese. Im uncomfortable with what I read that every company of significant size in China automatically requires CCP party members to be involved in the company at a high level. So Im very happy to hear people such as these…

I would rather have CCP listen than other parties. I am not a Chinese citizen, so I don't care.

Re: Unveiling secrets of the ESP32: creating an open-source MAC layer

#85

Post by lannisterstark »

mardifoufs wrote: post #72
halJordan wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats a false dichotomy, a false equivalence- it's just a lot of false stuff

How are the two not equivalent? If anything, for anyone living in the west it's probably less of an issue to have China spy on them than a western government. Sure, at a state security level it's not but for regular individuals I sure would rather have China spy on me since they can't do anything to me directly.

You have at least some civil rights in those countries, you don't in China. Be careful of a layover.

Re: Unveiling secrets of the ESP32: creating an open-source MAC layer

#86

Post by DeathArrow »

finnjohnsen2 wrote: post #13

I wasnt aware of this wifi blob. This feeds a tiny paranoia I have at the back of my head when dealing with esp32/espressif. I have dozens of esp32s around and I love them, but Espressif is 100% Chinese. Im uncomfortable with what I read that every company of significant size in China automatically requires CCP party members to be involved in the company at a high level. So Im very happy to hear people such as these…

I use a Chinese phone with a Chinese ROM. I installed Google service as apps, with limited permissions. I'd rather have Uncle Xi listening than Uncle Sam.

Re: Unveiling secrets of the ESP32: creating an open-source MAC layer

#87

Post by lannisterstark »

mardifoufs wrote: post #73
jszymborski wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And not sure why you'd be afraid of CCP, we saw the wikileaks, USA does a lot of similiarly bad stuff... I find little solace in this whataboutism.

It's not whatboutism when there's literally no proof that they are doing mass dragnet spying on western residents. And when we do have tons of proof of western governments doing exactly just that Again, it's a trendy buzzword to use but it literally isn't a catch all shield to argue that it's fine when we do it. When there's no proof of something happening, maybe we should focus on the thing that we know is happening…

How is "but they do it too" not whataboutism?

Re: Unveiling secrets of the ESP32: creating an open-source MAC layer

#88

Post by rowanG077 »

jszymborski wrote: post #78
mardifoufs wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not whatboutism when there's literally no proof that they are doing mass dragnet spying on western residents. And when we do have tons of proof of western governments doing exactly just that Again, it's a trendy buzzword to use but it literally isn't a catch all shield to argue that it's fine when we do it. When there's no proof of something happening, maybe we should focus on the thing that we know is happening…

1) The activities of the US gov't have precisely nothing to do with the probability that a device from China has some backdoor or surveillance function. When someone raises this concern, the response "the USA has a history of surveiling its citizens" is not a rebuttal, it's irrelevant. Thus a whataboutism. 2) Your burden of proof might be different from mine, but one needs to be pretty naive to think that the CCP doe…

1) of course it does. This is an information cold war. If participant 1 is doing something then participant 2 is forced to do at least the same thing so as to ensure they don't fall behind. It's very naive to not expect the actions of one state to not affect the actions of the other.

Re: Unveiling secrets of the ESP32: creating an open-source MAC layer

#89

Post by DeepSeaTortoise »

lannisterstark wrote: post #87
mardifoufs wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not whatboutism when there's literally no proof that they are doing mass dragnet spying on western residents. And when we do have tons of proof of western governments doing exactly just that Again, it's a trendy buzzword to use but it literally isn't a catch all shield to argue that it's fine when we do it. When there's no proof of something happening, maybe we should focus on the thing that we know is happening…

How is "but they do it too" not whataboutism?

"Whataboutism" is trying to deflect to an utterly unrelated topic, like suddenly turning around, pointing at a tree an screaming "but what about the pine needle water content cartel?!".

It certainly isn't pointing out hypocrisy, establishing a common standard or a cureall in online discussions.

I've seen a proper "whataboutism" been used but only once (by a malfunctioning redditor from Eglin Airforce Base).

Re: Unveiling secrets of the ESP32: creating an open-source MAC layer

#90

Post by rzzzt »

lannisterstark wrote: post #87
mardifoufs wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not whatboutism when there's literally no proof that they are doing mass dragnet spying on western residents. And when we do have tons of proof of western governments doing exactly just that Again, it's a trendy buzzword to use but it literally isn't a catch all shield to argue that it's fine when we do it. When there's no proof of something happening, maybe we should focus on the thing that we know is happening…

How is "but they do it too" not whataboutism?

It's... flips through the list of officially recognized fallacies "tu quoque": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
Post reply on HN