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Watsonx: IBM's code assistant for turning COBOL into Java

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Re: Watsonx: IBM's code assistant for turning COBOL into Java

#81
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen some currently used COBOL that had it's like change date in the early 80s in the finance industry, so there some rather ancient programs out there. Of course this also means that these files have met the needs of the industry that long and bug free so why go messing with things that move 100s of millions/billions of dollars per day.

Even if it's not handling billions of dollars a day... Why fix what isn't broken? Software isn't an end into itself, it's a tool to solve a business need. If the business need is met, there's not anything to fix.

Because you lose the ability to fix/update it if you don't exercise it ? Depends on how much you value the ability to change the software.

Re: Watsonx: IBM's code assistant for turning COBOL into Java

#82
post #38
post #34

I feel like this solution was written by someone who hasn’t built software before. Doing a rewrite for the sake of a rewrite is not a good idea.

So... Having no COBOL devs left is a better one? What's the alternative then?

There are plenty of COBOL devs; they're just not in the American labor market.

Re: Watsonx: IBM's code assistant for turning COBOL into Java

#83
post #49
post #21

The article title is clickbaity, but the actual point is the proposal of using LLMs to translate large amounts of legacy COBOL systems to more modern languages like Java. Doesn't seem terribly useful to me. I expect you could get a 90% solution faster, but the whole challenge with these projects is how to get that last bit of correctness, and how to be confident enough in the correctness of it to actually use it in P…

> I expect you could get a 90% solution faster, but the whole challenge with these projects is how to get that last bit of correctness, and how to be confident enough in the correctness of it to actually use it in Production. Is the goal to get working systems or to generate support activity? Or to tank the systems and replace them? > it's a management problem, and no AI tech is going to fix that What if we replace m…

90% of middle management could be replaced with simple shell scripts; LLM would be a vast overkill.

Re: Watsonx: IBM's code assistant for turning COBOL into Java

#84
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell, after seeing both kind of applications (java vs cobol) by these bank/financial companies I am of the opposite mind. Those COBOL applications will keep working until the sun burns up or inflation makes the numbers so long they no longer fit in bounds. The java applications they write should fill you with terror.

Why do you say the Java applications at banks and financial institutions so bad? I'm not trying to contradict you or say you're wrong; I just want to know why. Not having ever seen this kind of software, I would assume that the existing COBOL applications are good simply because all the bad COBOL code was probably scrapped decades ago, an example of survivorship bias.

Survivorship bias is bad if you're making a statement like "All old houses were good because we still see some old houses around".

But if you already have an old house that's working it's worth considering survivorship bias if you're building a new house to replace it. That new house is much less likely to survive that bias filter. Getting the new house as good as the old house will likely take you far more time and money than you expected.

And the same is with software. For example including outside libraries in your application makes the code much easier to write. You don't have to reproduce functionality. But libraries typically work like kitchen sinks. You may not have wanted a garbage disposal, but your library came with it and for the next X years your application is around you have to make sure that disposal doesn't catch fire. From the security side you have to make sure there is no code interaction with disposal or any of the other 'household' functions its including that you're not testing for.

At least in what I do for a living which is in the field to code security reviews (I don't do these reviews myself, but I work with the teams that do), the amount of security issues that get caught in these new applications in a multi round process, at least to me is staggering. It has to be a multi round process as we see the issues being reintroduced we'd call out in previous sessions. Quite often in these larger organizations the programming teams are so unstable that between our first calls and last calls the entire team working on it will have rotated out.

Re: Watsonx: IBM's code assistant for turning COBOL into Java

#85

Classic misunderstanding of programming languages. The only thing stopping cobol from being "known" is these companies paying for it.

Chicken and egg, companies stop paying, say no devs, devs not interested as no companies paying for it. Tell me that COBOL to Java porting pays $150K p/a and I'll be happy to take the job, at least for a year or 3.

You work that as a contractor easy if you can find them. The problem is they're rarely hiring one offs to do this because these companies don't have engineering cultures, which is why they contract this shit to system integrators of the world like IBM, then they outsource the work to shoddy consultancy shops to maximize their profits doing basically zero work. If everything goes exceptionally bad (which it did at least in the case I was involved in), then they hire competent contractors to come in and save them from frighteningly large law suits. That's the new dev cycle of these legacy modernizations.. ahh

Re: Watsonx: IBM's code assistant for turning COBOL into Java

#86
One correction on the article: "watsonx" (yes, with a lowercase "w" - ugh) is an umbrella brand for several of IBM's "AI" related products.

The actual product name for this one is "watsonx Code Assistant for Z", as the author could have found with a simple web search:

https://www.google.com/search?q=watsonx+cobol+java

https://newsroom.ibm.com/2023-08-22-IBM-Unveils-watsonx-Gene...

Disclosure: I work for IBM in "watsonx Orders", an automated order taker for restaurant drive-thrus.

Re: Watsonx: IBM's code assistant for turning COBOL into Java

#87
post #21

The article title is clickbaity, but the actual point is the proposal of using LLMs to translate large amounts of legacy COBOL systems to more modern languages like Java. Doesn't seem terribly useful to me. I expect you could get a 90% solution faster, but the whole challenge with these projects is how to get that last bit of correctness, and how to be confident enough in the correctness of it to actually use it in P…

I'll never get tired of these overly confident armchair expert comments on HN

Re: Watsonx: IBM's code assistant for turning COBOL into Java

#88
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen some currently used COBOL that had it's like change date in the early 80s in the finance industry, so there some rather ancient programs out there. Of course this also means that these files have met the needs of the industry that long and bug free so why go messing with things that move 100s of millions/billions of dollars per day.

Even if it's not handling billions of dollars a day... Why fix what isn't broken? Software isn't an end into itself, it's a tool to solve a business need. If the business need is met, there's not anything to fix.

One reason is that it’s harder to execute by the year. Mainframes might be fast for some things, but they won’t/can’t scale as well as a gazillion VPS instances.

I bet there are plenty of shops that have software they’d love to run on a cheap cloud server, so that they could retire their hyperexpensive big iron.

Re: Watsonx: IBM's code assistant for turning COBOL into Java

#89
post #21

The article title is clickbaity, but the actual point is the proposal of using LLMs to translate large amounts of legacy COBOL systems to more modern languages like Java. Doesn't seem terribly useful to me. I expect you could get a 90% solution faster, but the whole challenge with these projects is how to get that last bit of correctness, and how to be confident enough in the correctness of it to actually use it in P…

AI is just one tech, there's been "language X to Y" converters for a long time, including Cobol to Java. To the point where it will compile and at least seem to do the same thing, but... that's the thing with these codebases, verifying that it does the same is the challenge.

I have 0 experience in this field, but I'm willing to take a guess that the majority of a Cobol to X developer's work is not (re)writing code, but figuring out what the original code does, what it's supposed to do, and verify that the new code does the same thing. More testing than programming.

Re: Watsonx: IBM's code assistant for turning COBOL into Java

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

COBOL is pretty easy to learn. The problem is that it is so full of archaic nonsense (less so with the more recent versions) that you will be tearing your hair out and wishing for something more modern. COBOL's main value is in maintaining a pile of legacy codebases, mostly in fintech and insurance that are so large and so old that rewriting them is an absolute no-go. These attempts at cross compiling are a way to ge…

> that rewriting them is an absolute no-go Rewriting and expecting 100% feature-parity (and bug-parity, since any bugs/inconsistencies are most likely relied upon by now) is realistically impossible. However, new banking/insurance startups proved you can build this stuff from scratch using modern tooling, so the migration path would be to create your own "competitor" and then move your customers onto it. The problem…

This is the way, however, integrating with legacy systems then becomes a challenge; a bank's software is never isolated, it has to interface with others, cough up reports for the authorities, etc etc etc.

The green field isn't everything.

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