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Before OpenAI, Sam Altman was fired from Y Combinator by his mentor

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Re: Before OpenAI, Sam Altman was fired from Y Combinator by his mentor

#81

Post by Kiro »

imjonse wrote: post #73
al_borland wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe this was the kind of environment he was cultivating at OpenAI if 95% of the staff were ready to follow him out the door. I've worked for the type of people you mention and no one followed them when they leave. 95% threatening to leave in this case is hard to ignore.

I can believe the staff likes or even loves him, but the following him part was mostly because of money/shares and because they know he's influential and well connected to people with money. And peer pressure may have had a part in that letter signing. You don't want to be on the side of the losers if Altman gets his way.

> mostly because of money/shares

How do you know?

Re: Before OpenAI, Sam Altman was fired from Y Combinator by his mentor

#82

Post by ethbr1 »

theGnuMe wrote: post #50
fvdessen wrote: post #9

I've had the 'chance' to work with some deeply manipulative persons in the past, the kind who goes to your desk and say 'Hey, I noticed you started to speak to X again, and your performance seems to suffer as a result", where X is a friendly colleague that opposed some plan of that person. It is incredibly difficult to keep those people in check as all that behaviour is off the record and impossible to prove. When pe…

This is basic bullying. I would ask for specific examples of the performance decline. That will also be a "he said you said" situation. However, sunlight is the best disinfectant. A bully cannot stand in isolation unless he is enabled. But if left too long they can amass too much power as the bully can manipulate enough people to vote for him (see Trump) or manufacture the vote. In those cases it takes a far larger f…

> But if left too long they can amass too much power as the bully can manipulate enough people to vote for him

That feels exactly like why the board did what they did. Reading between the lines of everything that has been published, the actual sin that led to Altman's firing seems obvious:

(1) Altman went to a board member and proposed something that would decrease the board's power over him (probably kicking someone off the board)

(2) That board member tells other board members about the conversation

(3) Board asks Altman if he had that conversation. Altman denies it

(4) Board fires him for lack of candid communication with board

(5) Board doesn't explicitly say what happened publicly, because it's inside baseball. But they absolutely know it did happen, because it they were first parties to it

This feels less about safety vs commercialization (in the immediate future) and more about not having faith in a CEO caught in a lie while trying to remove oversight.

Re: Before OpenAI, Sam Altman was fired from Y Combinator by his mentor

#83

Post by mandmandam »

Keats wrote: post #23

I can't believe someone that created Worldcoin could not be trustworthy.

Worldcoin alone is so, so damning of his character. Cartoon villain shit.

It's hard to square that whole thing with the way people talk about him here. But every once in a while it hits; this is the guy who wanted to collect everyone's bloody retina pattern, all for a crypto so obviously bad in nearly every fundamental aspect.

Re: Before OpenAI, Sam Altman was fired from Y Combinator by his mentor

#84

Post by imjonse »

Kiro wrote: post #81
imjonse wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can believe the staff likes or even loves him, but the following him part was mostly because of money/shares and because they know he's influential and well connected to people with money. And peer pressure may have had a part in that letter signing. You don't want to be on the side of the losers if Altman gets his way.

> mostly because of money/shares How do you know?

I don't obviously. But since those people were ready to jump ship to Microsoft, I am pretty sure they care more about their own careers than 'creating AGI that benefits humanity as a whole in the first place'

Re: Before OpenAI, Sam Altman was fired from Y Combinator by his mentor

#85

Post by refurb »

pnut wrote: post #14
lynx23 wrote: post #7

It is hard to see through the unfolding drama. Since I am lacking data (and we all do), I can only fall back to my intuition. When I was listening to Sam being interviewed by Lex, I had to turn the podcast off because I felt I am listening to a deeply flawed and manipulative character. He left a creepy feeling of "Never ever trust this guy".

Depends on who you are, I guess? He's optimising for business growth and opportunity, I bet VCs and Moloch have him on on their Christmas card lists.

Billions of dollars can paper over some very serious personality traits.

Re: Before OpenAI, Sam Altman was fired from Y Combinator by his mentor

#86

Post by Kiro »

sertbdfgbnfgsd wrote: post #12

Yeah, the craziest thing for me to come out of this was how everyone in HN just assumed he was "innocent". Poor poor sam altman, he's a victim. He comes across as a sleazebag to me.

But it's OK to assume he's a sleazebag?

Re: Before OpenAI, Sam Altman was fired from Y Combinator by his mentor

#87

Post by ackbar03 »

cma wrote: post #30
fvdessen wrote: post #9

I've had the 'chance' to work with some deeply manipulative persons in the past, the kind who goes to your desk and say 'Hey, I noticed you started to speak to X again, and your performance seems to suffer as a result", where X is a friendly colleague that opposed some plan of that person. It is incredibly difficult to keep those people in check as all that behaviour is off the record and impossible to prove. When pe…

This endorsement of Sam from 2011 is actually pretty damning, though it is so long ago if it were the only thing it wouldn't be a huge red flag: >I just saw Sam Altman speak at YCNYC and I was impressed. I have never actually met him or heard him speak before Monday, but one of his stories really stuck out and went something like this: > "We were trying to get a big client for weeks, and they said no and went with a…

oh sht, this guy can persuade clients and close deals? Better keep him away from the company!

Re: Before OpenAI, Sam Altman was fired from Y Combinator by his mentor

#88

Post by preommr »

al_borland wrote: post #44
fvdessen wrote: post #9

I've had the 'chance' to work with some deeply manipulative persons in the past, the kind who goes to your desk and say 'Hey, I noticed you started to speak to X again, and your performance seems to suffer as a result", where X is a friendly colleague that opposed some plan of that person. It is incredibly difficult to keep those people in check as all that behaviour is off the record and impossible to prove. When pe…

I find it hard to believe this was the kind of environment he was cultivating at OpenAI if 95% of the staff were ready to follow him out the door. I've worked for the type of people you mention and no one followed them when they leave. 95% threatening to leave in this case is hard to ignore.

I want to know other people's opinion on this.

Because if it was me working at OpenAI, I would've signed it just out of peer pressure even if I disliked him. As the CEO, Altman undoubtedly shaped senior management that would've one way or another put pressure on everyone else under them.

When I was salaried, my main concern would've been to just get my pacheck and keep things going as smoothly as possible in my day-to-day with the least amount of drama. And I feel like a lot of people are like this.

Re: Before OpenAI, Sam Altman was fired from Y Combinator by his mentor

#89

Post by gexla »

al_borland wrote: post #44
fvdessen wrote: post #9

I've had the 'chance' to work with some deeply manipulative persons in the past, the kind who goes to your desk and say 'Hey, I noticed you started to speak to X again, and your performance seems to suffer as a result", where X is a friendly colleague that opposed some plan of that person. It is incredibly difficult to keep those people in check as all that behaviour is off the record and impossible to prove. When pe…

I find it hard to believe this was the kind of environment he was cultivating at OpenAI if 95% of the staff were ready to follow him out the door. I've worked for the type of people you mention and no one followed them when they leave. 95% threatening to leave in this case is hard to ignore.

Isn't this how you gain power? You influence as many people as you can through suggestion that you can give them what they desire? Then grow that group to be large enough so that you're cemented within the org?

Manipulation doesn't even necessarily feel bad. Just promising something, or offering a place inside the "in-group" could do the trick for most. It's when you're up against someone whose job it is to safeguard something (like someone on the board dedicated to a mission) where you start needing to get a bit more gangster with your tactics.

Re: Before OpenAI, Sam Altman was fired from Y Combinator by his mentor

#90

Post by Jochim »

bhouston wrote: post #48
cma wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This endorsement of Sam from 2011 is actually pretty damning, though it is so long ago if it were the only thing it wouldn't be a huge red flag: >I just saw Sam Altman speak at YCNYC and I was impressed. I have never actually met him or heard him speak before Monday, but one of his stories really stuck out and went something like this: > "We were trying to get a big client for weeks, and they said no and went with a…

This is sort of par for the course in the world of early stage startups. No one wants to be your first customer as it is risky, but you need that first customer. So you "fake it until you make it." It is similar to dressing the part you want - at least when that mattered. You buy more expensive clothes than you should be able to afford so that people think you are more successful than you are, and then they are more…

I believe such behaviour is harmful and that we shouldn't be rewarding those that engage in it.
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