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I disagree with Geoff Hinton regarding "glorified autocomplete"

statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu

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Re: I disagree with Geoff Hinton regarding "glorified autocomplete"

#81
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody actually understands how humans actually understand something, just like nobody actually understands how LLMs do what they do. Everybody opining about it is doing just that: offering an opinion. Geoff Hinton’s opinion is worth more than someone else’s, but it is still an opinion.

I don’t know about the human part, but we absolutely understand how LLMs do what they do. They’re not magic.

We also understand, down to a very very very microscopic level, how neurons work. We also know a helluva lot about the architecture of the brain. Does that mean we can explain our own intelligence, how our minds actually work? Nope.

Re: I disagree with Geoff Hinton regarding "glorified autocomplete"

#82
The fallacy being made in this argument is that computers need to perform tasks the same way as humans to achieve equal or better performance on them. While having better "system 2" abilities may improve performance, it's plausible that scaled-up next-token prediction along with a bit of scaffolding and finetuning could match human performance on the same diversity of tasks while doing them a completely different way.

If I had to critique Hinton's claims, I would say his usage of the word "understand" can be vague and communicate assumptions because it's from an ontology used for reasoning about human reasoning, not this new alien form of reasoning which language models embody.

Re: I disagree with Geoff Hinton regarding "glorified autocomplete"

#83
post #5

> If you want to be really good, you have to understand what’s being said. That’s the only way. This is simply not true. Predicting the next letter or word, or id you abstract it away from things that mean something to you, like the next color of a block in a long chain of colored blocks. You would realize that all we are doing is using statistics to predict what the next item might be. There simply is no need or req…

> You would realize that all we are doing is using statistics to predict what the next item might be. Two questions: 1. How can humans come up with novel ideas then? Statistically predicting the next item means I am limited to the training set. How do humans formulate new concepts in this scenario? 2. Why can humans learn from their own output then? If all we do is statistically predicting the next token, then, by ne…

> How can humans come up with novel ideas then?

hallucinations, emotions

> Why can humans learn from their own output then?

if we don't, we suffer

Re: I disagree with Geoff Hinton regarding "glorified autocomplete"

#84
post #5

> If you want to be really good, you have to understand what’s being said. That’s the only way. This is simply not true. Predicting the next letter or word, or id you abstract it away from things that mean something to you, like the next color of a block in a long chain of colored blocks. You would realize that all we are doing is using statistics to predict what the next item might be. There simply is no need or req…

The best “statistic” you could compute to predict the next token would be the meaning of the prompt. A predictor computing meaning would outperform one that is not.

Re: I disagree with Geoff Hinton regarding "glorified autocomplete"

#85

I think this misses the point made by Hinton. The point is that, if a model is to reach a certain level of autocomplete, it needs to understand what it is talking about. Imagine the result of what required deep thought from you is included in the training data, along with billions of other such exchanges. At some point the only way to improve training score is to develop the ability to "understand" things. (That is,…

I agree, Hinton's point is more about next-token-prediction being a good training objective for understanding, and not whether LLMs reproduce every aspect of a human's thought processes. They clearly don't (at least not at present scale), otherwise we'd have AGI now!

Re: I disagree with Geoff Hinton regarding "glorified autocomplete"

#86
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that exactly how humans learn to respond to stimuli? Don't we just try to predict the best next response to everything? Yes, It's statistics but the fun part is nobody is writing this statistical function by hand.

LLMs don't have a concept of "best". Only most likely in what they've been trained on. I think LLMs ultimately just take imitation to a creative and sophisticated extreme. And imitation simply doesn't comprise the whole of human intelligence at all, no matter how much it is scaled up. The sophistication of the imitation has some people confused and questioning whether everything can be reduced to imitation. It can't.…

> LLMs don't have a concept of "best". Only most likely in what they've been trained on.

At temperature 0 they are effectively producing the token that maximizes a weighted sum of base LM probability and model reward.

Re: I disagree with Geoff Hinton regarding "glorified autocomplete"

#87
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can think before I speak, I can plan out my thought entirely before turning it into words. In theory models can/could do the same thing. Think of the current text output of a model being those thoughts inside your head, you have an internal scratch space you work on ideas, then after you perform 'chain of thought' on them, you output to the world. What you're outputting to the world isn't your directly thoughts, b…

>Really for LLMs you just need to have the model put it's output to an internal buffer, read that buffer and make sure it makes sense, then output that to the end user. Makes sense to what. The LLM doesn't have a goal, other then to spew text that looks like it should be there.

The analogy lies in the fact that, much like evolution through natural selection, deliberate intelligence/ability of organisms to comprehend reality is not the objective, but something else entirely is.

For evolution, it's fitness. For LLMs, it's the next token.

Yet despite that, the ability to reason emerges as a means to an end.

Re: I disagree with Geoff Hinton regarding "glorified autocomplete"

#88
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is simpler than that. Prediction requires a model, completely accurate or not. There's a projection of the world in text. A model of the text data we feed it is a model of the world as humans see it. The trend of loss is more and more accurate models of the dataset. So it won't stop at any arbitrary competency level. Indeed, there are already a few abilities GPT possess that are deemed Super Human. It's…

I think the trouble is that "model" is a very general term. If you had a computer doing simulations of artillery shots back in the 50s, then it would have a "model" of the world in terms of variables tracking projectiles, but this model doesn't generalize to anything else. If a computer does image recognition from the 90s and 2000s to recognize faces, then the computer has a "model" of visual information in the world…

>ChatGPT has a model of all the text information on the internet, but it remains to be seen what the hard limits of this model are.

Before training is complete and loss is maxed, there will be limits on what the "learned so far" model can do that say absolutely nothing about the limits of a perfect(or very close to it) model.

It really looks like anything will converge with enough compute. I don't think architecture is particularly important except as "how much compute will this one take?" question.

https://nonint.com/2023/06/10/the-it-in-ai-models-is-the-dat...

>Does this model let it do logic or predict the future well, or will no amount of training give it those abilities?

There's nothing special about logic. Basically, any sequence is fair game. It literally does not matter to the machine.

Boolformer: Symbolic Regression of Logic Functions with Transformers(https://arxiv.org/abs/2309.12207)

That said, GPT-4 can already do logic. It's not perfect but if perfect logic were a requirement then humans cannot do logic either.

>Simply being good in one task doesn't imply a general ability to do everything, or even most of everything.

It's not one task. It's one modality (text) that a plethora of tasks could be learned in.

Coding and playing chess did not suddenly become a single task just because we found the common ground that allows a machine to learn both.

The text, image, video and audio data we could feed a transformer will cover anything we care about.

Re: I disagree with Geoff Hinton regarding "glorified autocomplete"

#89
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can think before I speak, I can plan out my thought entirely before turning it into words. In theory models can/could do the same thing. Think of the current text output of a model being those thoughts inside your head, you have an internal scratch space you work on ideas, then after you perform 'chain of thought' on them, you output to the world. What you're outputting to the world isn't your directly thoughts, b…

>Really for LLMs you just need to have the model put it's output to an internal buffer, read that buffer and make sure it makes sense, then output that to the end user. Makes sense to what. The LLM doesn't have a goal, other then to spew text that looks like it should be there.

To the terminal or instrumental goal of the statement it is working on.

Question to LLM, "I have one hundred and eleven eggs in the store and another two hundred and twenty two are showing up in an hour, how many eggs will I have in total"

Internal response "this looks like math problem that requires addition. the answer is 333. use a calculator validate 111 + 222. (send 111+222, receive 333). Tool returns 333 validing previous response"

External response: "The answer is 333"

This chain of logic is internally consistent, hence makes sense.

Re: I disagree with Geoff Hinton regarding "glorified autocomplete"

#90

The fallacy being made in this argument is that computers need to perform tasks the same way as humans to achieve equal or better performance on them. While having better "system 2" abilities may improve performance, it's plausible that scaled-up next-token prediction along with a bit of scaffolding and finetuning could match human performance on the same diversity of tasks while doing them a completely different way…

> The fallacy being made in this argument is that computers need to perform tasks the same way as humans to achieve equal or better performance

Especially since I don't think we know that much about how human intelligence actually works.

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