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Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

electrek.co

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Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#81

Post by hef19898 »

mlyle wrote: post #15
qmarchi wrote: post #5

It's crazy to me that this is possible in the first place. Standard practice is to have a fleet of test vehicles that are effectively production except in an early release group. Or, you know, having an A/B boot partition scheme with a watchdog. Things that have been around for decades at this point. Disclaimer: Former Googler, Worked closely with Automotive.

The code went through early release tests successfully; the problem came with how it was more broadly released. They should have had further staging of the rollout (randomizing when it is offered to users).

I am still not sure why I would update software on car, a piece of hardware that, IMHO, shoupd be able to run air gapped 24/7. Exceptions: recurring bugs, GPS maps and security updates. All of which can be done either during service (preferred, if they brick it, they are liable) or by plugging in something. OTA updates just seem completely pointless...

Edit: Also, why the heck isn't the entertainment system completely air gapped from the software running the car?

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#82

Post by ct0 »

nomel wrote: post #43
qudat wrote: post #27

What a nightmare. This is where software engineering meets "real" engineering, where a "bug" has potentially life threatening consequences.

> where a "bug" has potentially life threatening consequences. What are you referring to? That is not relevant to this story, and would require a deep understanding of the system to make such a claim of negligence. “The issue impacts the infotainment system. In most cases, the rest of the vehicle systems are still operational ...” Also, you can't do an update while driving.

You've never been to death valley without air conditioning Or Russia without heat. I think the infotainment system in this case has a broken climate control function. There are workarounds, but why if you don't have your phone?

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#83

Post by psunavy03 »

michaelt wrote: post #56
qmarchi wrote: post #5

It's crazy to me that this is possible in the first place. Standard practice is to have a fleet of test vehicles that are effectively production except in an early release group. Or, you know, having an A/B boot partition scheme with a watchdog. Things that have been around for decades at this point. Disclaimer: Former Googler, Worked closely with Automotive.

To me it's all-too-understandable how this is possible. Maybe they've got a test fleet, but it accepts code signed with the test build key. Maybe they've got a watchdog timer, but it doesn't get configured until later in the boot process. Maybe they've got A/B boot partitions, but trouble counting their boot attempts - maybe they don't have any writable storage that early in the boot process. I wouldn't be surprised…

Exhibit A of why a Minimum Viable Product still needs a proper Definition of Done which includes quality standards.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#84

Post by xyst »

qmarchi wrote: post #5

It's crazy to me that this is possible in the first place. Standard practice is to have a fleet of test vehicles that are effectively production except in an early release group. Or, you know, having an A/B boot partition scheme with a watchdog. Things that have been around for decades at this point. Disclaimer: Former Googler, Worked closely with Automotive.

When a car company is losing money on every car sale. C level execs going to cut corners

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#86

Post by aftbit »

cozzyd wrote: post #54
galangalalgol wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It quite possibly could have with a well formed digital fm payload.

We'll hopefully no car manufacturer is dumb enough that the FM radio software can affect vehicle control functions but I wouldn't be surprised ..

I'm pretty sure they are all dumb enough for this. This is why people can steal (modern) cars by ripping a headlight out and accessing the CAN bus through the gap.

https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/

AIUI the military uses "CAN bus firewalls" to prevent this. There is also some sort of encrypted/authenticated CAN bus protocol in the works. Neither are common in production cars as of 2022 or so, though they may be soon enough.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#87

Post by BuckRogers »

babypuncher wrote: post #77
nomel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this shows more of a fundamental flaw in their update mechanism, than anything. I don't think a botched update is a big deal. It happens, and should be expected , in a sane design. The fact that the customer noticed is a big deal. There are many implementations that could be used for an "auto rollback" feature. They either failed to implement that in a sane way, or they were goobers, and assumed things would…

I would be pretty pissed if I went out to my garage to head to work one morning and found that a damn software update bricked my car overnight. This shouldn't even be a thing, why does a car need regular software updates to keep functioning?

It doesn’t. People and these tech companies are tools. And do it largely in search of ways to take more of your money. It’s not a favor.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#88

Post by martin8412 »

dilyevsky wrote: post #38
martin8412 wrote: post #33

Stuff like this is why I don't want OTA updates in my cars. Let the car dealership deal with it during regular maintenance. They'll be on the hook for fixing it before handing the car back to me.

There is nearly zero regular maintenance to be done on EVs though. No oil, no belts, no fuel filter, spark plugs etc. Even the brakes will likely last entire lifetime of the car

Bullshit. BEVs eat through tires because they're heavy. The air cabin filter and pollen filter need frequent replacement. In the case of Tesla, you better check the undercarriage so you can potentially spot control arms soon to fail. The shield for the battery should be inspected.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#89

Post by dewski »

xyst wrote: post #84
qmarchi wrote: post #5

It's crazy to me that this is possible in the first place. Standard practice is to have a fleet of test vehicles that are effectively production except in an early release group. Or, you know, having an A/B boot partition scheme with a watchdog. Things that have been around for decades at this point. Disclaimer: Former Googler, Worked closely with Automotive.

When a car company is losing money on every car sale. C level execs going to cut corners

This is a bad take.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#90

Post by kyleee »

ChadMoran wrote: post #51
kevinventullo wrote: post #46

My 2019 car is not connected to the internet. Instead, I use Apple CarPlay for everything. Is there any reason not to do it this way?

Quite a few reasons but primarily CarPlay doesn't know about your vehicle's charge and road trip navigation requires external inputs to determine your charge route. Apple could potentially offer an API to have "reverse" CarPlay where the car's app can feed information into iOS. I recently rented an Mercedes EV which had Apple CarPlay and it was a weird experience having to manage two sets of experiences.

Manufacturers should be required to expose an agreed upon spec API that provides range estimate, battery state, etc. So CarPlay and other apps can access the info in a standardized way
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