Tragedy of return to hostile offices • Hacker News Board

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#81

Post by skulk » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:54 PM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #45

manuelabeledo wrote: post #17

In some ways, OP’s suggestions are a recipe for building hostile teams! Why would I be entitled to interrupt someone to review my code, just because they are sitting next to me? Always on zoom? No, thanks. It invariably devolves into micromanaging. Constant KPI awareness? Most companies cannot even agree on how a valuable KPI looks like. Remote pair programming? Honest question here, is pair programming still a thing…

Pair programming isn't widely practiced for obvious reasons: It looks like you just made your code twice as expensive. There are studies justifying the cost by showing it can be recovered with less testing, code review, and bug hunting. But that evidently hasn't been persuasive. Also, anyone familiar with statistical quality control (SQC or SQA) would look at pair programming and see 100% inspection. Very suboptimal…

This makes sense if you see programmers as cogs in your code factory that produce exactly 1 coder day of code per day.

If, however, you see them as humans with different skills that can be shared amongst each other, then pair programming makes a lot more sense.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#82

Post by XorNot » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:55 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #13

So, I have often worked remotely, think it's fine, and makes sense in some cases. But, honestly, this is a professional-class issue, and every article about it seems written from a viewpoint that has forgotten about most of the population. The waitress and cook never had the option of working remotely, nor did the factory worker, the construction worker, the taxicab driver, the truck driver, etc. etc. Most of the pop…

This is crab bucket thinking. Dragging people to the office doesn't improve the plight of other workers.

Keeping more people away from commutes though does reduce traffic for those who need to get around.

Central commercial real estate could actually provide useful things, rather then "places people sit at computers they could do anywhere".

Distributing the work force out means more mixing of class and profession. Service jobs can be closer to where people live because they're more distributed.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#83

Post by 2023throwawayy » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:55 PM UTC

Galanwe wrote: post #60

tristor wrote: post #10

One of the primary reasons that remote work improves productivity is that it allows employees to tailor their environment to their needs, rather than be forced into a hostile office space that requires kafkaesque bureaucratic bullshit to make even minor changes. I once had a former employer force me to take an espresso machine home that I had brought to work because it created a situation where a different shift was…

> remote work [...] allows employees to tailor their environment to their needs, rather than be forced into a hostile office space Some office spaces being bad doesn't imply we should get rid of office spaces overall. If the company you're working for is so crazy on its office requirements, it could be as crazy with its remote work requirements. Seems like this is a company specific issue, not an office vs remote iss…

If you are in a positive office space, you need to understand that you are incredibly lucky and part of a tiny minority.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#84

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:56 PM UTC

Devasta wrote: post #19

I work in Cork, Ireland. My boss is in Dublin, his boss Singapore, my staff in Nova Scotia, Devs in Manila, clients in London and New York. I'm always working remotely, no matter where I am, as is anyone who works in any multi office company. The RTO is being entirely driven from the top by institutional investors wanting to avoid losses on property investments and from the bottom by those who have yet to grapple wit…

[deleted]

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#85

Post by Tade0 » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:56 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #13

So, I have often worked remotely, think it's fine, and makes sense in some cases. But, honestly, this is a professional-class issue, and every article about it seems written from a viewpoint that has forgotten about most of the population. The waitress and cook never had the option of working remotely, nor did the factory worker, the construction worker, the taxicab driver, the truck driver, etc. etc. Most of the pop…

> The longer we bemoan being forced to go to work in order to get paid, the more the rest of the population becomes convinced that the professional class is entitled and a bit spoiled.

My experience is that the rest of the population has very little day-to-day contact with people like me and remote work only reduces it, so they simply don't care.

I get some vague interest in the details of my life when salaries are mentioned, but when I explain what kind of hoops you have to jump and what kind of lifestyle you have to lead (desk job and learning after hours) to get to these figures, interest is usually lost.

Overall people are way less interested in how strangers live their lives and visibly less envious than one would think. For most this line of work is boring and soul crushing and they don't think the salary makes it worth it.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#86

Post by runamuck » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:56 PM UTC

twh270 wrote: post #76

sircastor wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last job had pinball machines in the breakroom. We also had folks coming over from the UK who thought those pinball machines were awesome. The pinball got taken away because it was seen as “unfair” to all the offices that didn’t have something like that.

Notice how shi*y companies always seem to find that "unfairness" needs to be "fixed" by removing the benefit?

*Every company

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#87

Post by tenebrisalietum » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:57 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #13

So, I have often worked remotely, think it's fine, and makes sense in some cases. But, honestly, this is a professional-class issue, and every article about it seems written from a viewpoint that has forgotten about most of the population. The waitress and cook never had the option of working remotely, nor did the factory worker, the construction worker, the taxicab driver, the truck driver, etc. etc. Most of the pop…

Some thoughts:

* Employers should pay the cost of employee travel to work, at least count the time spent traveling to work as work hours. If I'm driving into work it's not really my free time.

* If I lived near my workplace, I wouldn't care about working from home so much. Society has done something seriously wrong where most people cannot live near where they work.

* By getting the professional class off the roads, traffic is better for those who have to work in person. By tearing down the offices that aren't really needed and replacing with residential and other mixed use, we might have a shot at rearranging things where the people that need to be physically present at work can live close to work.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#88

Post by InCityDreams » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:57 PM UTC

varispeed wrote: post #64

pid-1 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that work? Are institucional investors writing "plz return to office or we are going bust" emails to every company?

Companies have investors / shareholders who are also invested in commercial property. They use their power as shareholders to mandate RTO so that their investments won't lose value. It's going from the top.

Investors have invested in companies that just happen to pay rent to the....investor (now landlord)?

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#89

Post by GenerocUsername » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:57 PM UTC

benjaminwootton wrote: post #68

chasd00 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The RTO is being entirely driven from the top by institutional investors wanting to avoid losses on property investments and from the bottom by those who have yet to grapple with the fact they dont have friends or hobbies and need you in the office so that they dont feel like such embarrassing losers. I know i'm supposed to "contribute to the conversation" but it's important to recognize that the above point is exa…

Is it though? Most companies prioritise their own self interest over nebulous “institutional investment” bogeymen.

Do they? Odd how coordinated so many companies reach the same conclusions, policies, and follow the same trends.

Could it be that the board members of these companies are in that nebulous investor class?

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#90

Post by tbyehl » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:57 PM UTC

Devasta wrote: post #19

I work in Cork, Ireland. My boss is in Dublin, his boss Singapore, my staff in Nova Scotia, Devs in Manila, clients in London and New York. I'm always working remotely, no matter where I am, as is anyone who works in any multi office company. The RTO is being entirely driven from the top by institutional investors wanting to avoid losses on property investments and from the bottom by those who have yet to grapple wit…

If you look at RTO mandates coming out of places like IBM and Yahoo during the Before Times, there was clearly an "increase unforced attrition" aspect to them. Layoffs without the pesky WARN notices, severance, etc.