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macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

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Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#81

Post by c-hendricks »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #68
beebeepka wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would 60 FPS CSS animations look bad on high refresh displays?

Well the CSS transition wouldn't run at 60 fps, it would run at 120 fps, no? An animation that looks slick at 120 fps might look too fast/slow/complex/whatever on a common 60 hz screen. So if I was still doing this sort of development, I'd prefer to be working on a 60 hz monitor.

I'm not even sure CSS animations can go above 60fps, and am unsure why you'd think it would be faster / slower on a different refresh rate screen: CSS transitions are defined by time, not frames.

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#82

Post by Wowfunhappy »

beebeepka wrote: post #77
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the CSS transition wouldn't run at 60 fps, it would run at 120 fps, no? An animation that looks slick at 120 fps might look too fast/slow/complex/whatever on a common 60 hz screen. So if I was still doing this sort of development, I'd prefer to be working on a 60 hz monitor.

Aren't CSS animations capped at 60, same as requestAnimationFrame? I've been advocating (and using) high refresh displays for over two decades and I find your reasoning preposterous. Downgrading to crappy 60 Hz monitor for nothing.

> Aren't CSS animations capped at 60, same as requestAnimationFrame?

Did some quick Googling to make sure I wasn't just out of the loop on this, as far as I can tell they are not the same: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/5025

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#83

Post by pb7 »

zippergz wrote: post #67
NavinF wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I wonder why anyone would turn ProMotion off considering that 120Hz massively improves responsiveness. I've only encountered one app that doesn't work with variable refresh rate and that's Genshin on Windows. Even that's probably not an issue with newer monitors that can handle VRR down to 60Hz without my monitor's frame-doubling flicker as it keeps switching been 60Hz and 120Hz

I turn it off because I can’t tell the difference and if it doesn’t improve anything for me, I might as well not have the system wasting battery and other resources on it.

It does the opposite: it goes well below 60Hz when there is no motion on screen.

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#84

Post by Wowfunhappy »

c-hendricks wrote: post #81
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the CSS transition wouldn't run at 60 fps, it would run at 120 fps, no? An animation that looks slick at 120 fps might look too fast/slow/complex/whatever on a common 60 hz screen. So if I was still doing this sort of development, I'd prefer to be working on a 60 hz monitor.

I'm not even sure CSS animations can go above 60fps, and am unsure why you'd think it would be faster / slower on a different refresh rate screen: CSS transitions are defined by time, not frames.

Sorry, I meant the animation might look too fast, psychologically. The frame rate changes how we perceive movement.

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#85

Post by pb7 »

tpmx wrote: post #46
neilalexander wrote: post #3

Interestingly I ran into this exact problem with my work MacBook Pro M1 upgrading to Ventura 13.6 and assumed it was a totally isolated incident. I don't have a dual-boot setup either, just a single macOS install. The computer was connected to a Thunderbolt Display during the update which I assume had the same effect of changing the refresh rate to something other-than-ProMotion that the linked article mentions. I ha…

This is depressing. They clearly have they ability ($$$) to do the required amount of manual QA, but don't. Or there was QA and someone decided that your case still wasn't enough to hold up the release. In my mind, when we pay that ridiculous Apple premium on RAM and storage, we pay for excellent quality in SW/HW. They also need to deliver that quality.

It's a bug...

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#86

Post by jug »

I wonder if this is behind a failed Sonoma upgrade I saw on eBay today; Mac Mini M2 Pro sold as-is for a very decent price, about $300-$400 off despite from this year. :) Seller didn't know what was wrong with the Mac, only that it happened during Sonoma upgrade and this sounds mighty suspicious for such a new machine if it's widespread.

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#87

Post by AshamedCaptain »

jwells89 wrote: post #43
krackers wrote: post #5

See also his twitter for some speculation as to how on earth simply changing refresh rate would cause boot corruption: https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/111329614147717090 >Why? I can tell you why: because Apple hates display modeset flicker, and switching modes between ProMotion on/off causes a modeset flicker, so of course they made it so that is stored in nvram somewhere and applied when the screen is turne…

The messiness of resolutions during boot always annoyed me on PCs. It was understandable back in the days of BIOS, but ith the advent of UEFI it seems like it should be possible to run EFI config screens and the like at monitor native rez (or at minimum, native aspect ratio) but I’ve never seen this… it’s always 1024x768 or somesuch stretched to fit a 16:9 monitor which looks awful.

By the time my Dell monitor finally wakes from sleep, finishes negotiating whatever crap DisplayPort has to negotiate these days, and starts actually displaying frames, the computer has long since finished booting and is already idling at the desktop.

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#88

Post by tpmx »

pb7 wrote: post #85
tpmx wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is depressing. They clearly have they ability ($$$) to do the required amount of manual QA, but don't. Or there was QA and someone decided that your case still wasn't enough to hold up the release. In my mind, when we pay that ridiculous Apple premium on RAM and storage, we pay for excellent quality in SW/HW. They also need to deliver that quality.

It's a bug...

It's a device bricking bug. For a $2.5-10k device.

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#89

Post by dm319 »

jwells89 wrote: post #43
krackers wrote: post #5

See also his twitter for some speculation as to how on earth simply changing refresh rate would cause boot corruption: https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/111329614147717090 >Why? I can tell you why: because Apple hates display modeset flicker, and switching modes between ProMotion on/off causes a modeset flicker, so of course they made it so that is stored in nvram somewhere and applied when the screen is turne…

The messiness of resolutions during boot always annoyed me on PCs. It was understandable back in the days of BIOS, but ith the advent of UEFI it seems like it should be possible to run EFI config screens and the like at monitor native rez (or at minimum, native aspect ratio) but I’ve never seen this… it’s always 1024x768 or somesuch stretched to fit a 16:9 monitor which looks awful.

My Amiga in the 1990s seemed to do a pretty good job at boot.

Re: macOS Sonoma Boot Failures

#90

Post by beebeepka »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #82
beebeepka wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't CSS animations capped at 60, same as requestAnimationFrame? I've been advocating (and using) high refresh displays for over two decades and I find your reasoning preposterous. Downgrading to crappy 60 Hz monitor for nothing.

> Aren't CSS animations capped at 60, same as requestAnimationFrame? Did some quick Googling to make sure I wasn't just out of the loop on this, as far as I can tell they are not the same: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/5025

Can you point me to the part confirming your claim? If anything, it's confirming mine that they both are stuck at 60 Hz.
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