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Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

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Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#81

Post by RandomLensman »

unmole wrote: post #75
RandomLensman wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are societies not allowed to chose certain models how to deal with some economic or employment situations? Why would only capital be allowed to pool but not workers?

Is a competing model not allowed in that society? Why can't individuals make decisions for themselves?

They can and they do - who says otherwise? If a model is very pervasive this also is expressed in people moving to other countries, which in the EU isn't that difficult (and conversely, there are also people moving the other way. A bit like a market for societal models).

So really, individuals do make decisions and act on them on many levels.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#82

Post by unmole »

rini17 wrote: post #72
unmole wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are Swedish Tesla employees unsafe? Does Sweden not have safety regulations? Are Swedish authorities failing to enforce them?

Isn't voluntary agreement between employer and employees better than regulations? They should be last resort, and they can't catch everything, such as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38028660

> Isn't voluntary agreement between employer and employees better than regulations?

This this case the employee isn't volunteering.

> such as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38028660

They can't catch social media surveys?

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#83

Post by unmole »

RandomLensman wrote: post #81
unmole wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a competing model not allowed in that society? Why can't individuals make decisions for themselves?

They can and they do - who says otherwise? If a model is very pervasive this also is expressed in people moving to other countries, which in the EU isn't that difficult (and conversely, there are also people moving the other way. A bit like a market for societal models). So really, individuals do make decisions and act on them on many levels.

People should move countries instead of companies?

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#84

Post by s1artibartfast »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #44
markjonsona989 wrote: post #33

I have to say I don't understand Elon's (Tesla's) reaction here. Surely he was advised on Swedish and EU laws and how things work over here before he decided to do business in Sweden?

Tesla is not doing anything illegal as far as I understand. Looks like there is an expectation that Tesla behaves in a certain way in Sweden because " that's way we've always done it " but that's not in law. Tesla is sticking to the law, as far as I understand. I'm a bit uncomfortable about companies being criticised for sticking to the law. Of course, if workes and unions disagree they can also use their legal right…

Criticism is fine, but I think people should be careful not to conflate the two.

It’s fine to say “I think Tesla should pay more and not hire scabs”

The difference between law and opinion determines how this is enforced.

If actions are illegal, the government forces compliance.

If it is a matter of opinion, then it is up to the involved parties to sort it out themselves. This could be based on their negotiating leverage. Strikes, scabs, boycotts, and sympathy strikes are all fair game

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#85

Post by mytailorisrich »

arghwhat wrote: post #77
mytailorisrich wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And mob rule is a recipe for a nasty society...

The proper term is "democracy" when the mob is the majority of a society.

In a democracy you pass laws and those laws are applied uniformly, and again noone can demand that anyone else goes beyond the law.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#86

Post by RandomLensman »

unmole wrote: post #83
RandomLensman wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can and they do - who says otherwise? If a model is very pervasive this also is expressed in people moving to other countries, which in the EU isn't that difficult (and conversely, there are also people moving the other way. A bit like a market for societal models). So really, individuals do make decisions and act on them on many levels.

People should move countries instead of companies?

They can do either. But they are part of a society and that society has certain rules (and also ways to change them).

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#87

Post by s1artibartfast »

markjonsona989 wrote: post #73
s1artibartfast wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im not sure what you are saying. Strikebreakers are not illegal in EU. They aren't anywhere AFAIK, unions workers just dont like scabs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strikebreaker#Europe

That's why I also said "the way things work here" because it's a cultural thing; you just don't mess with worker's right in Europe. It might not be against the law, but it's not a normal practise. From what I found online last time this happened in Sweden was in 1920s. I'm not from Sweden but I am European and I know that unions and strikes are a normal thing and everybody supports them. If Elon tries to forcefully b…

I was thrown off by you bringing up the law, as it were relevant

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#88

Post by unmole »

hef19898 wrote: post #58
unmole wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good luck building cars Tesla doesn't build cars in Sweden. And Sweden accounts for a whopping 3% of Tesla's worldwide sales.

Yeah, because Tesla doesn't care about those 3%...

Yeah, because Elon Musk is known for financial prudence and not getting into petty fights.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#89

Post by mcv »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #44
markjonsona989 wrote: post #33

I have to say I don't understand Elon's (Tesla's) reaction here. Surely he was advised on Swedish and EU laws and how things work over here before he decided to do business in Sweden?

Tesla is not doing anything illegal as far as I understand. Looks like there is an expectation that Tesla behaves in a certain way in Sweden because " that's way we've always done it " but that's not in law. Tesla is sticking to the law, as far as I understand. I'm a bit uncomfortable about companies being criticised for sticking to the law. Of course, if workes and unions disagree they can also use their legal right…

> I'm a bit uncomfortable about companies being criticised for sticking to the law.

Are you serious? Should you only be allowed to criticise companies (and people?) when they break the law? That would be the end of free speech.

Obeying the law is not synonymous with doing good. The law is the very bottom line, but there's tons of shitty behaviour that's perfectly legal. That doesn't mean it's okay. There are tons of ways in which you can be an asshole without doing anything illegal. You won't go to prison, but people will criticise and avoid you.

Don't make the law your only basis for morality. Laws can be wrong, and they're certainly not enough. Because if you do that, you're basically demanding that every aspect of society be completely legislated, and that's a really bad idea.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#90

Post by RandomLensman »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #85
arghwhat wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proper term is "democracy" when the mob is the majority of a society.

In a democracy you pass laws and those laws are applied uniformly, and again noone can demand that anyone else goes beyond the law.

People can and do demand that - no sure why that is so difficult to understand. And there could be consequences for legal but nasty behavior and those consequences would also not violate any laws. Societies are more than just narrow legalistic machines and checking completely out of broader society is tough/comes with consequences.
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