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Nvidia to make Arm-based PC chips in major new challenge to Intel

reuters.com

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Re: Nvidia to make Arm-based PC chips in major new challenge to Intel

#81

Post by bhouston »

WhereIsTheTruth wrote: post #75
smoldesu wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anticipation of what? Microsoft has "supported" ARM as far back as Windows RT, but developers and integrators don't care. The hardware didn't (and still doesn't) sell, and every usable core design is either from the stone age or completely proprietary. Somehow, x86 SOCs are easier to iterate on. Dotnet supports Apple Silicon for the same reason it supports AArch64-Linux; it's a real user platform. Windows-on-ARM is r…

> Anticipation of what? > it won't get the attention it needs until attractive hardware is ready to ship. Dunno what to say! Windows RT is the perfect example; software was not ready, and is still not It's only been 11 months that Visual Studio can run on ARM

I think unlike Apple, Microsoft doesn’t commit to Arm. And because it doesn’t commit it doesn’t truly invest like Apple in ensuring success.

Re: Nvidia to make Arm-based PC chips in major new challenge to Intel

#82

Post by timschmidt »

solardev wrote: post #80
timschmidt wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same can literally be said about M1/M2 Macs. Graphics performance compared to anything discrete is terrible. My 3090Ti wipes the floor with an M2, despite being last generation's model. M2's CPU performance only looks good when divided by power consumption. Whole categories of Intel and AMD chips outperform it, just at higher power usage.

It's way better than other integrated GPUs though. And performance per watt matters a lot for heat and noise. I eventually gave up my gaming PC because it was so loud and hot, switching to Geforce Now instead.

I own an M1 and like it. But loading it up feels like loading up any other NUC style machine. I'm not sure on what axis it's better. Folks talk up the memory bandwidth, but in Apple's design, neither CPU, GPU, or NPU have access to full memory bandwidth. Not even close. Apple's caches are fast at 3 cycles, but AMD's are 10x larger. Apple's GPU claims further complicated given that they want everyone to use Metal as opposed to OpenGL, Vulkan, or DirectX on their platform. And compatibility and speed suffer as a result. Heat and noise are indeed important, from my perspective it simply seems that Apple's chosen a particular spot on the curve with an attractive outcropping thanks to early integration of on-package DRAM, but otherwise nothing special. Other manufacturers will ship on-package DRAM. AMD and NVIDIA have been shipping on-package HBM to the datacenter for an age.

If anything, it seems that Apple's much larger product - the iphone - had a lot more to do with M1/M2 design than high end desktop equipment. On package DRAM is common in cell phones to reduce board size. And M1 is a scaled up A series SoC. I think it's a great product for Apple. But as someone who's supported Mac, Linux, and Windows machines at a university for a decade, it doesn't feel appreciably different from Intel NUCs over that timespan. AMD's 7840U is setting a new standard for power and performance on the PC side right now. And the two will continue to leapfrog.

Re: Nvidia to make Arm-based PC chips in major new challenge to Intel

#83

Post by sassy_quat »

brucethemoose2 wrote: post #19
bhouston wrote: post #3

Given how much I love my MacMini M2 Pro - its perfectly silent operation and its incredibly small form factor combined with great graphics performances, I can imagine that having similar machines available for Windows and Linux would be very attractive.

We can get that with x86. We just don't, because it's cheaper to clock the chips higher and burn more power, and to keep large graphics seperate from the CPU. Intel's/AMD's attempts at addressing this (Broadwell/Skylake with eDRAM, Vega M, AMD's Van Gogh and Dragon Crest) were universally shot down by laptop OEMs. I don't know why, but they were probably just being cheap.

[dead]

Re: Nvidia to make Arm-based PC chips in major new challenge to Intel

#84

Post by [deleted] »

bhouston wrote: post #81
WhereIsTheTruth wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anticipation of what? > it won't get the attention it needs until attractive hardware is ready to ship. Dunno what to say! Windows RT is the perfect example; software was not ready, and is still not It's only been 11 months that Visual Studio can run on ARM

I think unlike Apple, Microsoft doesn’t commit to Arm. And because it doesn’t commit it doesn’t truly invest like Apple in ensuring success.

[deleted]

Re: Nvidia to make Arm-based PC chips in major new challenge to Intel

#85

Post by solardev »

timschmidt wrote: post #82
solardev wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's way better than other integrated GPUs though. And performance per watt matters a lot for heat and noise. I eventually gave up my gaming PC because it was so loud and hot, switching to Geforce Now instead.

I own an M1 and like it. But loading it up feels like loading up any other NUC style machine. I'm not sure on what axis it's better. Folks talk up the memory bandwidth, but in Apple's design, neither CPU, GPU, or NPU have access to full memory bandwidth. Not even close. Apple's caches are fast at 3 cycles, but AMD's are 10x larger. Apple's GPU claims further complicated given that they want everyone to use Metal as o…

I have trouble finding objective flops/watts or similar tests, but subjectively, Apple Silicon is fast, quiet, and long-lasting in a way that no laptop has ever been for me. It's a dramatic upgrade in performance, noise, battery life, and heat vs all the previous laptops I've ever owned or used, including Intel MacBooks, ThinkPads, Surface Books, Chromebooks, small biz machines, gaming machines, and countless others.

"Sweet spot" is exactly right. It's not the best at anything but the best balanced that I've ever used, by a huge margin.

I don't think it's magic either and I hope that Intel, AMD, Microsoft, Google, Nvidia etc. can deliver a similar package in a future laptop. For now though they seem hopelessly behind, at least among the products I've used.

Also, among those companies, Nvidia is the only one I'd trust to do a decent end user experience. Maybe Google to some degree, but they'd end up sunsetting the product after a generation or two.

Microsoft tried to do the same with the Surface line, but every single one I've used sucks. The tablets are way too heavy and clunky. The laptops overheated and couldn't even charge while playing games. Windows has a ton of ads.

Apple's integration of all the things really makes it a standout in today's commoditized and enshittified world, IMO. It's not just tech specs but how the product feels to use at the end of the day.

Re: Nvidia to make Arm-based PC chips in major new challenge to Intel

#86

Post by sassy_quat »

brucethemoose2 wrote: post #58
nerdjon wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed the part after it. The first problem is software, which given what Apple managed with Rosetta I think will be able to be addressed. But the big problem is hardware. Are we going to see customizable ARM systems or are all ARM systems going to be basically SOC's and basically just be a console. Maybe with an expansion port for something other than graphics? I am asking because to my knowledge we have not see…

> But upgradability and building your own computer is a big reason that people choose a PC vs a console. I hate to break it to PC builders, but DIMMs are starting to max out, signal integrity over those pins is becoming a problem. Before long, CPU RAM is probably gonna be soldered and packaged with the CPU anyway. The architecture won't necessarily be like Apple though. The CPU/GPU could be their own tiles, meaning w…

[dead]

Re: Nvidia to make Arm-based PC chips in major new challenge to Intel

#87

Post by timschmidt »

solardev wrote: post #85
timschmidt wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own an M1 and like it. But loading it up feels like loading up any other NUC style machine. I'm not sure on what axis it's better. Folks talk up the memory bandwidth, but in Apple's design, neither CPU, GPU, or NPU have access to full memory bandwidth. Not even close. Apple's caches are fast at 3 cycles, but AMD's are 10x larger. Apple's GPU claims further complicated given that they want everyone to use Metal as o…

I have trouble finding objective flops/watts or similar tests, but subjectively, Apple Silicon is fast, quiet, and long-lasting in a way that no laptop has ever been for me. It's a dramatic upgrade in performance, noise, battery life, and heat vs all the previous laptops I've ever owned or used, including Intel MacBooks, ThinkPads, Surface Books, Chromebooks, small biz machines, gaming machines, and countless others.…

I used my M1 Mac Mini (16gb / 512gb) for a month, then switched back to my 5800X3D / 3090Ti system and even the desktop seemed to be twice as fast. Applications screamed. Code compiled 5x faster. Probably an unfair comparison. Not much difference in what I paid though.

My most recent laptop purchase was a $300 AMD Ryzen 3 to which I added 64gb of ECC DRAM for another $300ish. Zero complaints. It's faster than the M1 at every game the two can both play.

I run Linux on both. I'm not really tied to platform - if I can run Linux on it and it performs better, I'm game.

Re: Nvidia to make Arm-based PC chips in major new challenge to Intel

#88

Post by solardev »

timschmidt wrote: post #87
solardev wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have trouble finding objective flops/watts or similar tests, but subjectively, Apple Silicon is fast, quiet, and long-lasting in a way that no laptop has ever been for me. It's a dramatic upgrade in performance, noise, battery life, and heat vs all the previous laptops I've ever owned or used, including Intel MacBooks, ThinkPads, Surface Books, Chromebooks, small biz machines, gaming machines, and countless others.…

I used my M1 Mac Mini (16gb / 512gb) for a month, then switched back to my 5800X3D / 3090Ti system and even the desktop seemed to be twice as fast. Applications screamed. Code compiled 5x faster. Probably an unfair comparison. Not much difference in what I paid though. My most recent laptop purchase was a $300 AMD Ryzen 3 to which I added 64gb of ECC DRAM for another $300ish. Zero complaints. It's faster than the M1…

Sure, but performance isn't the primary (or at least only) consideration for many users. M1/M2 was never top at performance, just balancing it for perf/watt.

Re: Nvidia to make Arm-based PC chips in major new challenge to Intel

#90

Post by bsder »

nerdjon wrote: post #20

> Microsoft's plans take aim at Apple, which has nearly doubled its market share in the three years since releasing its own Arm-based chips in-house for its Mac computers. I know that Mac was always in single digit marketshare (but still a healthy amount as far as money for apple goes) but still doubling seems to be quite an achievement? I am curious if this is actually from an increase in Mac sales or a decrease in…

> I am curious if this is actually from an increase in Mac sales or a decrease in PC sales and Mac has just been stable?

Once the M1 came out everybody HAD to upgrade, so Apple got a huge boost for a couple years as people cycled out their x86 stuff.

Latest data shows Apple's computer sales slumping much harder than the PC industry in general.

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