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Chrome Removing Theora Support

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Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#81

Post by Macha »

tambre wrote: post #57
kmeisthax wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that H.265's patent owners didn't form a single patent pool, so the licensing is a nightmare, with three separate pools, patent holders that never joined a pool, and lots of double-billing all over the place. H.266 isn't much better. So a lot of people just stuck with H.264 as the "good enough" codec as a result. The only people not using it were organizations who couldn't or wouldn't pay for any paten…

> Implementations of AV1 in discrete GPUs similarly only landed last year with Nvidia 40 series NVIDIA has supported AV1 hardware decoding since the 30 series. I believe they were the first to market with it.

Radeon 6000 also supports accelerated av1 decoding. The 7000 series added encoding.

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#82

Post by iopq »

Sesse__ wrote: post #79
qwerty456127 wrote: post #70

Aren't modern video codecs prohibitively computationally expensive for mediocre office-class PCs?

dav1d can decode 4K video in realtime on a pretty normal office-class PC. The real issue for is mobile.

Mobile doesn't have 4K screens, any phone released in the last few years can handle 1080p or 1440p AV1

I mean ANY phone. My phone is $160 from 2019 and it can play 1440p AV1 on youtube (with a few frame drops, but nothing noticeable), even though it has a 720p screen. I'd have to get my OnePlus 3 (2016) to stutter in 1440p

note that the OnePlus 3 would stutter in h264 1440p as well, it's just old

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#83

Post by extraduder_ire »

mort96 wrote: post #46
belltaco wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe to encode/decode video on a Mars rover.

I mean the Ingenuity helicopter runs Linux, which seems to suggest that a few megabytes here and there isn't such a big deal; whatever the constraints of mars are, they seem to have a fair amount of onboard storage. I can't imagine that the improved video compression of AV1 compared to Theora or H.264 wouldn't outweigh the cost of that 4MB extra storage space.

That hardware selection was locked-in years ago, I think that's the major hold up with ginny in particular. I don't think even the next helicopter they're building now will be able to get hardware AV1 encoding. Would be moderately funny if they could eek better performance out of ffmpeg with remote updates.

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#84

Post by Sesse__ »

iopq wrote: post #82
Sesse__ wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

dav1d can decode 4K video in realtime on a pretty normal office-class PC. The real issue for is mobile.

Mobile doesn't have 4K screens, any phone released in the last few years can handle 1080p or 1440p AV1 I mean ANY phone. My phone is $160 from 2019 and it can play 1440p AV1 on youtube (with a few frame drops, but nothing noticeable), even though it has a 720p screen. I'd have to get my OnePlus 3 (2016) to stutter in 1440p note that the OnePlus 3 would stutter in h264 1440p as well, it's just old

It's not only about “handle”, it's about not eating through all of your battery before you're done watching the video. But no, “any” phone cannot reliably play 1080p AV1:

https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/conference-proceedings-of...

“Overall AV1 real-time playback of 720p 30fps @ 2Mbps is feasible for low-end devices with 4 threads and 1080p 30fps @ 4Mbps is feasible for high-end and mid-range devices with 4 threads using Dav1d decoder.”

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#85

Post by lproven »

extraduder_ire wrote: post #83
mort96 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the Ingenuity helicopter runs Linux, which seems to suggest that a few megabytes here and there isn't such a big deal; whatever the constraints of mars are, they seem to have a fair amount of onboard storage. I can't imagine that the improved video compression of AV1 compared to Theora or H.264 wouldn't outweigh the cost of that 4MB extra storage space.

That hardware selection was locked-in years ago, I think that's the major hold up with ginny in particular. I don't think even the next helicopter they're building now will be able to get hardware AV1 encoding. Would be moderately funny if they could eek better performance out of ffmpeg with remote updates.

Just FWIW...

* eke out -- extend something by stretching it or using less.

* eek -- a noise of surprise or fear, stereotypically used upon seeing mice.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/eke--out

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#86

Post by lproven »

Ygg2 wrote: post #71
pdntspa wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Winamp, foobar2000

Winamp still exists? I thought it was resold twenty times to various shady entities.

Relaunched about a year ago.

The website is so unremittingly awful I didn't even spin up a Windows VM to try it. Massive, all bitmaps, almost no text, no actual info at all, mentions blockchain.

https://www.winamp.com/

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#87

Post by izacus »

koito17 wrote: post #69
izacus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was never good. We used it in spirit of OSS in our hackerspace, but it was always terrible and behind all the MPEGs of the time.

> It was always terrible and behind all the MPEGs of the time. So was VP8, which Google ended up pushing at nearly the same time they were rejecting Theora as an inferior H.264 clone. The irony being that VP8 wasn't that different either[1] [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20150301015756/http://x264dev.mu...

Interesting you claim that - I actually put together a rather in-depth report at the time and VP8/H.264 performed very closely as formats (that is, quality metrics vs. filesize were very comparable even if encoding time of x264/libvpx wasn't) and theora was just awful (SSIM and similar quality metrics were behind for like 30-40% which was a lot).

The article you've linked it talking about some decoder implementation details which I'm not sure were all that relevant for end users - x264 was always the superior encoder, libvpx was "ok", libtheora was terrible when it came to actual encoded video results. Not sure what the article you posted really proves around that.

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#88

Post by qwerty456127 »

iopq wrote: post #80
qwerty456127 wrote: post #70

Aren't modern video codecs prohibitively computationally expensive for mediocre office-class PCs?

Not really, my laptop is intel 5000 series dual core, it can handle 720p AV1 video. I did get a few dropped frames, but I had to go into "Stats for nerds" to see that they dropped. When I switched to vp9, I still had some dropped frames anyway, so it's slow regardless My laptop doesn't have a 1080p screen, but trying 1080p it could do some videos better than others. in this one I only dropped 2 frames: https://www.yo…

> it can handle 720p AV1 video. I did get a few dropped frames

I'm sorry for being ambiguous. I meant encoding, not decoding. In my opinion an average PC should be able to encode at least some minutes of video in reasonable time.

Whatever, having to recourse to frame dropping (even in a negligible degree) means having 100% CPU or IO load already reached, doesn't it? 100% load on 720p playback sounds bizarre. I have been accustomed to any video playback taking just a few percents on any old computer with Intel graphics.

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#89

Post by a1o »

versteegen wrote: post #67
Uberzi wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question. In which scenario do you care so much about the size of the DLL , these days ?

Well I'm looking for the same thing, for a lightweight 2D game engine supporting decades old hardware (the game player is 2MB zipped, 1MB for a minimised build). Animations are likely to be low resolution and seconds long, so a huge decoding library would be pointless. Sure, most users don't care about file sizes, but some (including me) still do. Especially for the wasm and Win95 ports. I considered libtheora, the l…

Same use-case, we used to rely on system libraries but the video codec support is all over the place on each platform, and developers would test in their main platform and ship to others without fully testing and have a broken video near the end of their games because WMV runs on Windows but not on macOS, or the audio of the video was a variant of AAC that didn't run in the web port in some places and a bunch of other random differences between platforms to the point the only reliable way was to cut system video libraries and make sure all platforms have the exact same codecd. But then it turns out there isn't something better than Theora or mpg-1 without making the game player have 10x or more in size - the game player is around 3MB unzipped.
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