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Disc Brakes Took over the Cycling World. Here's Why That Was a Mistake

outsideonline.com

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Re: Disc Brakes Took over the Cycling World. Here's Why That Was a Mistake

#81
post #59

I'm OK with disc brakes, but perhaps I'm a Luddite, I think electronic shifting is terrible. Don't get me wrong, it's cool, but I think it's a step too far.

It is fast ; it's like just think about changing gears and poof, it's done. But I hate having yet another electronic device in my life that I have to keep charged up.

It's really cool, but it's changed racing and it doesn't feel traditional anymore. Proper gear change, shift wear and tear, those are aspects of racing.

I could be a Luddite, but maybe I'm just a traditionalist.

Re: Disc Brakes Took over the Cycling World. Here's Why That Was a Mistake

#82
post #72
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely the opposite of my experience and the experience of anybody I've ever met who has actually ridden a bicycle before.

If you have the money to pay someone else to deal with the maintenance, then sure I guess. I do my own work and don't want to deal with bleeding brakes and all the extra tools that are required for that.

I'm at 16k miles on my current road bike and the only maintenance I've done on my hydraulic disc brakes is swap the pads, which takes five minutes and requires no special tools. I assume at some point I'll need to have the brakes bled, but a $50 service task every 20k miles is not actually a meaningful expense relative to everything else.

Re: Disc Brakes Took over the Cycling World. Here's Why That Was a Mistake

#83
I bought a top end pinarello last year which has (obviously because there is no other choice) some disc brakes, and I hate them so much compared to my oldest bike with rim brakes which was fine and working well.. the disc brake needs so much maintenance compared to the rim brakes and make so much annoying noise, i always need to make sure to have them right by the milimeter and make sure when you transport the bike and remove the wheel to block them or they would start to misaligned, this thing is such a ripoff.....

I need to add that i never had any issues with my rim brakes while descending long mountain downhill.. it may brake a bit less than the disc brakes when wet but i just need to make careful and anticipate my braking more... but it's raining so I should make careful anyway!!!!

(context: i am a old grumpy european cyclist who lives by the alpes and does around 5/7k of road cycling a year for the last 10/15 years)

Re: Disc Brakes Took over the Cycling World. Here's Why That Was a Mistake

#85
A well reasoned article. Though I think Eben (aka Bike Snob NYC) has a tendency to jump straight into his core arguments without necessarily getting all his readers on the same page (hence the heat in this thread!)

I've done a lot of bike building, repair, maintenance, and comparisons, particularly in the last few years.

Up until 2000 or so, disc brakes did not exist for bicycles in a meaningful way. They were very popular on motorcycles, trains, and automobiles, largely because they provide stopping power for longer than the previous popular technology, drum brakes. And because they are arguably more maintainable than drum brakes, which are allegedly a pain in the ass to work on. Automobiles mostly moved to discs by the 50s or so; trains moved even earlier.

Bikes, on the other hand, had two (or three) competing brake systems prior to the 2000s. The most popular by far worldwide is rim brakes, the familiar clamping system that rubs pads on the rim of the wheel. These work great, are easy to maintain, and easy to fix when something goes wrong. Their biggest downside is wet, and even moreso muddy conditions, which can significantly reduce braking power when crap gets between the pad and the rim. And older cantilever brakes are really really tricky to set up, especially if you don't do it much. The 90s saw a significant improvement here with the development of Shimano's V-brake, which simplified rim brake tweaking to the point where basically anyone could do it.

V-brakes are essentially "good enough for anyone". But racers drive the bicycle part industry. Competition leads to the constant drive for new parts; companies sponsor top racers to get their parts on display at racing events; non-pro racers across the USA spend millions of dollars per year chasing incremental gains with these upgrades.

So racers moved to disc brakes. They were initially really heavy (they require attachment points and pad hardware that's much more substantial than the rim brake equivalents), really expensive, and not much of an improvement over rim brakes. Eventually folks figured out that hydraulic brakes (which use tubes filled with mineral oil instead of cables for actuation) could provide extra stopping power with less effort. And so all racing bikes adopted hydraulic disc brakes in the early 2010s.

Unfortunately, everything in the bike industry chases racing fads. There are only a couple of major parts manufacturers (shimano and SRAM) that make complete sets of brakes, drivetrains, and levers. This is changing with the recent growing popularity of brands like microShift, but most frame manufacturers have existing relationships with shimano and SRAM -- picture something like the Qualcomm domination in the smartphone SoC industry. And since those two big brands build racing and racing-inspired equipment, that's what we all get.

Most commuters do not need hydraulic disc brakes. They are an expensive luxury; there's no denying the stopping power is superior, but you don't need it if you're riding at 10-20mph across town to get to your job or pick up some groceries. As other commenters have pointed out, you're also fucked if something happens to one of your brake lines (aka oil filled tubes) because it's nearly impossible to fix on the road. That's a big downside!

Anyway, sorry for the rant -- the discussion here just really ground my gears because it's so similar to the flaws I see with our community when folks talk about technology or even finance: people don't acknowledge that there's context (and personal preference) involved with picking the right tool for the job.

Disc brakes are kind of like Kubernetes: great for heavy workloads, occasionally a pain, but overkill for the lighter workloads unless you enjoy geeking out (that's the personal preference bit). Rim brakes are more like running something on a Raspberry Pi: dumb for heavy workloads, but often a good price:performance ratio for lighter workloads.

I wish folks in our community would have a little more empathy and mutual understanding instead of constantly insisting that they're correct. I feel like HN used to be better about this, but I think this behaviour has crept in more and more since Reddit self-immolated.

Re: Disc Brakes Took over the Cycling World. Here's Why That Was a Mistake

#86
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love my disc brakes, but I don't like the hydraulic aspect of them. I do wish that they used cables, instead. Those are easier for me to maintain/repair. I only use my bike to commute, though, and I don't think that there's a real difference in performance between hydraulic and cable with that use case so it's all about ease of maintenance for me.

They make cable disc breaks and cable actuated hydraulic disc breaks as well.

Yes, but I don't hate the hydraulics, I just like cables better, so I'm not going to go to the hassle and expense of changing what's already on my bike. My next bike, though, won't have the hydraulics. Just the discs.

Re: Disc Brakes Took over the Cycling World. Here's Why That Was a Mistake

#87
post #68
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting you prefer hydraulic specifically, even the disc brake zealots mostly agree mechanical is more reliable and easier to maintain.

This is absolutely the opposite of my experience and the experience of anybody I've ever met who has actually ridden a bicycle before.

My personal experience is that cable is easier to maintain and repair than hydraulics -- but it may very well be that I'm just used to repairing and maintaining cable brakes so that's naturally easier for me.

Re: Disc Brakes Took over the Cycling World. Here's Why That Was a Mistake

#88
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have the money to pay someone else to deal with the maintenance, then sure I guess. I do my own work and don't want to deal with bleeding brakes and all the extra tools that are required for that.

I'm at 16k miles on my current road bike and the only maintenance I've done on my hydraulic disc brakes is swap the pads, which takes five minutes and requires no special tools. I assume at some point I'll need to have the brakes bled, but a $50 service task every 20k miles is not actually a meaningful expense relative to everything else.

The problem with having a shop do the work isn't the expense, it's the time. At least in my area, bike shops typically have several days to a week of backlog, so if you take your bike in, you have to be prepared to not have your bike for a week or so.

That's a big deal for me.

Re: Disc Brakes Took over the Cycling World. Here's Why That Was a Mistake

#89
post #29
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love my disc brakes, but I don't like the hydraulic aspect of them. I do wish that they used cables, instead. Those are easier for me to maintain/repair. I only use my bike to commute, though, and I don't think that there's a real difference in performance between hydraulic and cable with that use case so it's all about ease of maintenance for me.

Hydraulics are much nicer feeling than cable discs (rim brakes feel way better than cable discs in my opinion). For bikes that you use a lot I think its worth getting hydraulics since you do need to maintain them either way. I only choose cable discs on bikes I use extremely rarely (i.e. I keep one at my inlaws for when I visit once or twice a year and I wouldn't want to deal with hydraulics maintenance in that conte…

For the type of riding I do, which is just daily commuting in the city, I have not noticed any performance difference between hydraulics and cable at all. So the only difference that matters to me is how easy the system is to maintain and repair. And for me, cables win on that count.

Re: Disc Brakes Took over the Cycling World. Here's Why That Was a Mistake

#90

Biking for 40+ years from around the neighborhood to centuries, and do maintenance except cost-prohibitive procedures. I have road and mountain bikes with rim brakes (grew up with them), disc brakes, and a 4kW scooter with disc brakes and regenerative braking. Disc brakes are high maintenance: oil (leaks and water content), pads, and springs. Rim brakes are more-or-less maintenance-free except cleaning the rims maybe…

> Rim brakes are more-or-less maintenance-free except cleaning the rims maybe every year or 2, and pads every 5-10 years. Only rarely alignment.

Damn, I wish I had that maintenance pattern with them. For me, cleaning the rims and shoes was a daily requirement during the rainy/muddy season, a set of pads would last me about a year, and the alignment needed adjustment every few months.

With disc brakes, I've needed none of that aside from alignment. I have needed to adjust the alignment every so often, but that's not that big of a deal.

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