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Ozone hole goes large again

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Re: Ozone hole goes large again

#81

Post by t0bia_s »

t0suj4 wrote: post #48
Melting_Harps wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China, behind the surface, is very anarchic, bejing can make rules all it wants but the local government beyond surface placation won't honor the spirit and restart production of all kind of stuff. While I concede that populations with livable-experience spanning millennia tends to drive Societies in that direction. I think it's more accepting a certain amount of tolerable corruption: China is incredibly corrupt, a…

I've heard from a law student in China that the law is a tool to control the masses. Assuming that is true, ignoring the law is simply taking things under control and bribery is the cost of doing business.

If you agree with "ignorantia juris non excusat" then student from China is right. Our governments adds tons of new laws every year and only few remove. We have about 2 millions laws, rules and regulations (Czechia). And we still believe that we live in free society.

Re: Ozone hole goes large again

#82

Post by acdha »

notjoemama wrote: post #62
yafinder wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any sufficiently big country is very anarchic in that sense. US and India are made of literal states. Russia resembles a medieval feudal structure. UK is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and it all would be about 5% population of China. An idea that someone or something could govern such a huge amount of people directly and controlling all aspects of life and economy looks absurd to me.

You should spend some time on YouTube watching videos about China and North Korea. It’s not absurd at all and the psychological mechanisms are well known to anyone who’s spent time reviewing how controlling a population works. Just a minimal cursory review reveals how fear and a rigid hierarchy are all that’s needed.

This is not helpful advice: YouTube has a vast amount of video but much of it is misleading, incomplete, or simply wrong and it’s all presented in exactly the same way. If there’s a specific person you think has expertise on a topic you have to link directly to their work.

Re: Ozone hole goes large again

#83

Post by arrowsmith »

baq wrote: post #77
notjoemama wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should spend some time on YouTube watching videos about China and North Korea. It’s not absurd at all and the psychological mechanisms are well known to anyone who’s spent time reviewing how controlling a population works. Just a minimal cursory review reveals how fear and a rigid hierarchy are all that’s needed.

It's always local lords and barons who make the rules. There are top-down rules, more like guidelines really, which are used to remove local government officials under whatever pretext when things go really south.

And the years 2020 and 2021 provide an obvious example of your second sentence.

Re: Ozone hole goes large again

#84

Post by arrowsmith »

jdiez17 wrote: post #52
throwaway290 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are not tenants they are part of the planet.

The Earth will be just fine without humans.

But humans can still do a lot of damage on our way out.

For example, the coral reefs won't be fine after humans go extinct - because there won't be any coral reefs left.

Re: Ozone hole goes large again

#85

Post by arrowsmith »

resolutebat wrote: post #80

It goes "large again" every year with the seasons, but the overall trend is that it's still shrinking: Claus concludes, “Based on the Montreal Protocol and the decrease of anthropogenic ozone-depleting substances, scientists currently predict that the global ozone layer will reach its normal state again by around 2050.”

Imagine if we'd invented CFCs but hadn't invented a way to monitor atmospheric O3 levels. We'd have burned the entire ozone layer away before we even realised that anything was wrong.

Re: Ozone hole goes large again

#86

Post by [deleted] »

yafinder wrote: post #63
notjoemama wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should spend some time on YouTube watching videos about China and North Korea. It’s not absurd at all and the psychological mechanisms are well known to anyone who’s spent time reviewing how controlling a population works. Just a minimal cursory review reveals how fear and a rigid hierarchy are all that’s needed.

I was born in the USSR, so, with all due respect, I think I know more about the internal mechanics of undemocratic states than a person who watched YouTube.

[deleted]

Re: Ozone hole goes large again

#88

Post by the_af »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #55
3seashells wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China, behind the surface, is very anarchic, bejing can make rules all it wants but the local government beyond surface placation won't honor the spirit and restart production of all kind of stuff. Which is fascinating, cause as soon as party rule is threatened, that very same principle ceases to apply.

The regime exists only because the people believe in the regime. If the people armed themselves and coordinated, they would outnumber policemen and soldiers. This is true in China, but it's true everywhere else. It's true in the west. If people stop complying we would get way more power and overall reduce inequality between the few rich and powerful and politically connect and you everyday Joe. For the same principle…

> For the same principle, Russia could never control Ukraine without support, the romans couldn't control their provinces without local approval.

The same principle applies to colonialism. The British in India, the French in Indochina, and countless other examples from history: the imperial power always needs support from the locals, usually the elite or in some way privileged classes whose welfare becomes tied to the rule of the imperial power.

Re: Ozone hole goes large again

#89

Post by joshuaissac »

Melting_Harps wrote: post #42
3seashells wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China, behind the surface, is very anarchic, bejing can make rules all it wants but the local government beyond surface placation won't honor the spirit and restart production of all kind of stuff. Which is fascinating, cause as soon as party rule is threatened, that very same principle ceases to apply.

> China, behind the surface, is very anarchic, bejing can make rules all it wants but the local government beyond surface placation won't honor the spirit and restart production of all kind of stuff. While I concede that populations with livable-experience spanning millennia tends to drive Societies in that direction. I think it's more accepting a certain amount of tolerable corruption: China is incredibly corrupt, a…

> The only real experiment of Anarchism that was remotely allowed to stand in China was Kowloon's walled city [0], and to no one's surprise the CCP has been doing everything to hide it's 'shame' and 'colonized' past ever since the uprising in 2019, forcing everyone out and bulldozing the area under 'renovation' and offering the HongKongers little to nothing in return in the process.

What exactly do you mean? Kowloon Walled City has never been under de facto mainland Chinese control. De jure sovereignty was transferred to the United Kingdom in the early 1990s so that it could be demolished, so by the time Hong Kong was handed back to the Chinese, the walled city had no longer existed. So how can the evictions and the bulldozing, carried out by the British-controlled Hong Kong government in the early 1990s, be in any way related to the 2019 protests?

Re: Ozone hole goes large again

#90

Post by Mistletoe »

> In response to this, the Montreal Protocol was created in 1987 to protect the ozone layer by phasing out the production and consumption of these harmful substances, which is leading to a recovery of the ozone layer.

If the hole happened now I’m sure CFC manufacturers would have AI-powered Cambridge Analytica-style social media campaigns creating ozone hole deniers and CFCs=Freedom groups and we would be arguing until the end of time over this as the ozone depleted.

Thank goodness the Montreal Protocol was created in a different era where that couldn’t happen.

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