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Why aren't there more 80% jobs?

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Re: Why aren't there more 80% jobs?

#81

Post by corethree »

defrost wrote: post #56
corethree wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your the frog living in the well. Think bigger. For eons and millennia society has been structured this way since forever. It's only in the recent three or four decades has there been a cultural shift. Men have been taking home the income since they were hunting, farming and now programming. Women taking home the money is a new thing. That only happened in the last 50 or so years. And the social pressures aren't even…

> Men have been taking home the income since they were hunting, farming and now programming. > Women taking home the money is a new thing. This is ill founded claptrap smacking of near zero exposure to working history. Farms in history would fail without women doing vast amounts of seriously hard work. Hunter-Gather societies mainly functioned on what was gathered, predominantly by women. It took both working togethe…

It's called the breadwinner model. It's followed by many diverse cultures. There are a few exceptions that certain groups with certain interests have over promoted but the generality is the breadwinner model.

China: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10834-014-9417-0

Afghanistan: https://ivypanda.com/essays/gender-role-in-afghanistan/#:~:t....

Western culture: (also describes the recent societal change) https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Breadwinner_model

Congo: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X2110223...

Ancient greece: https://culturalatlas.sbs.com.au/greek-culture/greek-culture...

India: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/03/02/key-findi...

Mayan culture: https://samnoblemuseum.ou.edu/collections-and-research/ethno....

Inuit: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Inuit_women

mesoamerica: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gender_roles_in_pre-Columbian_Me...

There's a consistent pattern here that illustrates a general norm.

Re: Why aren't there more 80% jobs?

#82

Post by corethree »

twobitshifter wrote: post #74
corethree wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Speaking from personal experience with a cohort of Millenial dads: a lot of "women working less to prioritize family" comes down to women being expected to be caregivers and men typically not having experienced the same socialization from a young age and feeling overwhelmed, thus retreating into work to both avoid care work and be able to justify it by being "the provider". It is not an expectation. It's been part o…

I actually do support handouts for women or men raising kids. This social labor goes unpaid but it’s extremely valuable for society. Instead we are following the economic arrow pointing us towards an arrangement where childcare is farmed out to chaotic day cares.

>This social labor goes unpaid but it’s extremely valuable for society

It's valuable to you as a person who has kids.

You will note the majority of people in the US will not have kids.

Why should I pay for your kid? You have to put yourself in the shoes of the person who doesn't have kids. Or the business owner who actually has to hand out the money. I support the payment because I have kids, but at the same time I'm able to play the devils advocate and see the other side of the equation rather then blindly support something in my own self interest.

Re: Why aren't there more 80% jobs?

#83

Post by corethree »

Freedom2 wrote: post #72
corethree wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I meant Scandinavian influenced or Scandinavian-like countries.

Why not type that in your original post then? Seems obvious to me. Perhaps there needs to be more US-like innovation in education where you were raised, or perhaps in the US overall?

It's a common mistake for people who don't live in Europe. For example, would a Europeans know the nuances between Northern CA and southern CA?

https://seekscandinavia.com/netherlands-part-scandinavia/

Just read it.

Re: Why aren't there more 80% jobs?

#84

Post by corethree »

HelloNurse wrote: post #69
corethree wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Interestingly, there have been some unintended downstream impact of this progressive law, such as lower women participation in senior level roles This isn't downstream impact. It's more of a choice. The women choose not to strive for senior level roles. They express this choice by choosing the 4 day work week. We shouldn't call it an unintended downstream impact because it's not something that should be corrected. I…

It can be considered an imperfect intermediate step towards gender equality: women that are more or less voluntarily burdened with child care are very likely to work part time, instead of quitting completely because part time is out of the question (which is a far worse discrimination than a "glass ceiling" with respect to high level promotions).

Yeah this is fair. It makes sense.

Equality is about equal pay for equal results. Not handouts. People forget that although the handout might be good for society overall it is unfair to the person giving out the handout.

I don't think this step is intermediate. It is the most fair step possible.

Re: Why aren't there more 80% jobs?

#85

Post by rkangel »

hcks wrote: post #36

1/ each additional employee comes with additional costs: management, communication, onboarding, HR, office space, etc.. 2/ People in a 40 hours contract usually work more than that. Employers can try to seek out employees that don’t mind working more than paid for. 3/ People who’d look for 80% jobs are (from employers perspective adversely) selected to be people that will monitor their hours worked and not give away…

Your points (2) and (3) are presented as fact but I'm not sure the data would support it.

Anecdotally, from talking to people in the UK, it's the people who work 4 days a week who work over their hours more. Sometimes they end up working part of a day on what would be a day off, or they work more hours on their existing days to try and "keep up"

Re: Why aren't there more 80% jobs?

#87

Post by HelloNurse »

corethree wrote: post #84
HelloNurse wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be considered an imperfect intermediate step towards gender equality: women that are more or less voluntarily burdened with child care are very likely to work part time, instead of quitting completely because part time is out of the question (which is a far worse discrimination than a "glass ceiling" with respect to high level promotions).

Yeah this is fair. It makes sense. Equality is about equal pay for equal results. Not handouts. People forget that although the handout might be good for society overall it is unfair to the person giving out the handout. I don't think this step is intermediate. It is the most fair step possible.

Further improvement would involve a more balanced workplace culture than promoting only "dedicated" workaholics (and expecting those workaholics to be men).

Re: Why aren't there more 80% jobs?

#88

Post by corethree »

HelloNurse wrote: post #87
corethree wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this is fair. It makes sense. Equality is about equal pay for equal results. Not handouts. People forget that although the handout might be good for society overall it is unfair to the person giving out the handout. I don't think this step is intermediate. It is the most fair step possible.

Further improvement would involve a more balanced workplace culture than promoting only "dedicated" workaholics (and expecting those workaholics to be men).

No it makes sense to promote dedicated workaholics to the highest echelons. They have maximal impact to business.

If those workaholics are women then those women very much need to be promoted as well. The data actually shows this is already happening. It shows that when you control for the choices women make about child care... the gender pay gap is largely negligible.

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gende...

This is an interesting podcast about the topic if you haven't hear of this concept already. They interview a female statistical professor from Harvard about it.

Re: Why aren't there more 80% jobs?

#89

Post by defrost »

corethree wrote: post #81
defrost wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Men have been taking home the income since they were hunting, farming and now programming. > Women taking home the money is a new thing. This is ill founded claptrap smacking of near zero exposure to working history. Farms in history would fail without women doing vast amounts of seriously hard work. Hunter-Gather societies mainly functioned on what was gathered, predominantly by women. It took both working togethe…

It's called the breadwinner model. It's followed by many diverse cultures. There are a few exceptions that certain groups with certain interests have over promoted but the generality is the breadwinner model. China: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10834-014-9417-0 Afghanistan: https://ivypanda.com/essays/gender-role-in-afghanistan/#:~:t... . Western culture: (also describes the recent societal change) http…

The consistent pattern is really really shitty links.

Modern Chinese wives in the US has F-All to do with traditional farming or Hunter Gatherers.

Home school essays submitted that outline the writers own particular bias are not exactly peak Histographic study.

An essay on Mayan division of labor does not undercut the reality that there's a ton of work to do and it gets split up (see my closing point), it actually reinforces it.

To reiterate - woman work just as hard as men in traditional farming and hunter gatherer lifestyles and your wealth of links don't run counter to that statement.

It's not to your credit that you attempt to bludgeon yor way through with a mass of links in the hope that no one will look closely.

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