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Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

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Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#81

Post by loloquwowndueo »

giantg2 wrote: post #57
seanr88 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the concept that the flow of traffic is more important than the pedestrian's flow is indicative of the change in attitude. Somehow the car has come to be most important while the pedestrian is a nuisance. Both own and pay for the road but the pedestrian is a second class citizen (obviously some people will moan on about road tax and fuel tax, but these taxes don't come close to paying for the road infrastructure…

"Even the concept that the flow of traffic is more important than the pedestrian's flow" Is it? It seems like in the example, both parties are following a signal. Cars must yield to pedestrians in crosswalks. Sure, some places have jaywalking laws when not in a crosswalk (in some cases including implied/unmarked crosswalks), and most require impeding traffic as a component. A few places could move towards common sens…

Look at the amount of road space, infrastructure, resources devoted to cars vs. pedestrians. The typical way for pedestrians to cross a busy highway for example is via a bridge - the pedestrian has to put up with going up and down the stairs. Pedestrians typically have to go out of their way to cross streets even at level. Traffic lights have “beg buttons” for pedestrians to use, god forbid they interrupt the flow of first-class car drivers for a minute more than necessary.

Pedestrians are totally treated as second-class almost everywhere.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#82

Post by mikrl »

trothamel wrote: post #79

Note that like most laws, Jaywalking laws tend to make more sense when you read them. Here's the law in New York: https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2015/vat/title-7/artic... 1152. Crossing at other than crosswalks. (a) Every pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right of way to all vehicles upon the roadwa…

Canada specific, but…

Diagonal crossing is a thing in Quebec City at certain intersections which stop the traffic flow in every direction.

Otherwise I only ever do it when I cannot see any cars which is fairly common at night in rural areas.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#83

Post by sandworm101 »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #40
tim333 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK has no jaywalking laws (apart from full motorways) and about 1/3 the pedestrian deaths of the US ( https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/10/10/exactly-how-far-u-s-s... ). There are other ways to do things.

Germany always is doing super well in these rankings. Yet 2/3rd of the highways have no speed limit at all. It's of course unsurprising: all cars are driving in the same direction on the highway so head-on collisions on the highways are extremely rare. Also pedestrian deaths on the highway: the number is so minuscule it doesn't even register.

>> head-on collisions on the highways are extremely rare.

And they aren't as dangerous as many would think. Cars have done lots to improve such collisions (airbags, crumple zones). A head-on collision between cars is still two relatively lightweight objects. Hit a concrete wall, overpass support, cliff or tree and you are going up against an object that makes a care look like tinfoil. The head-on seems bad, but it is more survivable than having your car bisected around a tree trunk. Or get pulled under a big truck.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#84

Post by aurea »

jcynix wrote: post #11

If you cross the street "near" a red traffic light, that costs you 5€ in Germany. If you admit that you did it intentionally, the ticket price doubles. Happened to my wife some years ago when walking to a bus stop on the other side of the street. How did the cop know that it was intentional? She remarked that there was no car in sight, neither left nor right, on a straight road in town. Oh, and what's the definition…

While I "jailwalk" pretty much all the time (in Europe), nighttime is when I am the most reluctant to do so. Poor visibility and higher chance of meeting a drunk driver.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#85

Post by Tade0 »

turtlesdown11 wrote: post #34
sandworm101 wrote: post #2

How quickly we forget history. Horses were also lethal. Look at the number of people killed by horses, either being thrown from them, trampled by them, or run over by carts pulled by horses. Streets were not some utopic garden of pedestrian safety prior to cars. There were no jaywalking rules because society had evolved over thousands of years being rather acceptive of horse-related dangers. When the new device came…

> There were once almost zero regs regarding candles, objects that killed thousands almost daily by fire. "killed thousands almost daily"...source for this?

A modern equivalent of this is the death toll from kerosene heaters/lamps, which are considerably safer than candles:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/kolkata/two-west-bengal-toddl...

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#86

Post by ljm »

scubbo wrote: post #56
retrac wrote: post #23

Worth pointing out that "jaywalking" is not a universal crime. There are jurisdictions in the USA where it's legal. And it's legal here in Canada. Even the term stands out -- I'm familiar with "jaywalking" but you only use a term for it if it's illegal. We just call it "crossing the street", or "impeding the flow of traffic", depending how you do it. (It's not exactly a free for all: in Ontario there is still a requi…

> Worth pointing out that "jaywalking" is not a universal crime. When I first moved from the UK to the USA, I assumed that "jaywalking" was a made-up thing that you warned tourists about, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop_bear . How could crossing the road be _inherently_ illegal, even if done in a safe manner!?

Roads in the US aren't as safe to cross - you wouldn't take a shortcut across a dual-carriageway in the UK and that's just 2 lanes in each direction.

Walking is just an afterthought really, until you get into certain areas like South Beach in Miami.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#87

Post by giantg2 »

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #81
giantg2 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Even the concept that the flow of traffic is more important than the pedestrian's flow" Is it? It seems like in the example, both parties are following a signal. Cars must yield to pedestrians in crosswalks. Sure, some places have jaywalking laws when not in a crosswalk (in some cases including implied/unmarked crosswalks), and most require impeding traffic as a component. A few places could move towards common sens…

Look at the amount of road space, infrastructure, resources devoted to cars vs. pedestrians. The typical way for pedestrians to cross a busy highway for example is via a bridge - the pedestrian has to put up with going up and down the stairs. Pedestrians typically have to go out of their way to cross streets even at level. Traffic lights have “beg buttons” for pedestrians to use, god forbid they interrupt the flow of…

"The typical way for pedestrians to cross a busy highway for example is via a bridge"

I'm not sure where you're from, but I have seen very few of these. Usually the ones I've seen are over a very busy road with few to no intersections and a lot of foot traffic. These are beneficial to the flow of both car and foot traffic instead of using long cycle times.

“beg buttons”

I'm sorry, but that is some extreme spin. What do you think happens at traffic signals? Those signals use sensors to identify when cars come up to them. These sensors don't work for pedestrians lacking large amounts of metal to trip the fields. So yeah, they have a button to tell the machine they want to cross. Usually, the lights change just as fast if not faster than if a car pulls up at a red light.

When in a shared space, everyone must wait their turn. If you don't, you end up with people steeping out in front if cars and people running red lights. Taking turns is part of a functioning society.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#88

Post by rrradical »

avalys wrote: post #66
scubbo wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worth pointing out that "jaywalking" is not a universal crime. When I first moved from the UK to the USA, I assumed that "jaywalking" was a made-up thing that you warned tourists about, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop_bear . How could crossing the road be _inherently_ illegal, even if done in a safe manner!?

There are tons of traffic laws that make things technically illegal even if they're perfectly safe ("no U-turn"), for the purpose of keeping traffic flow orderly and efficient. Not sure why this should be any different or why pedestrians should not be expected to follow traffic laws, or why the law should allow pedestrians to step into traffic whenever and wherever they want.

U-turns are not perfectly safe. Last week I saw a U-turner almost a hit a biker as they backed up after not being able to complete the turn in one pass. Can they be done safely? Sure. But that's not the same as perfectly safe.

Re: Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015)

#89

Post by fifticon »

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #81
giantg2 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Even the concept that the flow of traffic is more important than the pedestrian's flow" Is it? It seems like in the example, both parties are following a signal. Cars must yield to pedestrians in crosswalks. Sure, some places have jaywalking laws when not in a crosswalk (in some cases including implied/unmarked crosswalks), and most require impeding traffic as a component. A few places could move towards common sens…

Look at the amount of road space, infrastructure, resources devoted to cars vs. pedestrians. The typical way for pedestrians to cross a busy highway for example is via a bridge - the pedestrian has to put up with going up and down the stairs. Pedestrians typically have to go out of their way to cross streets even at level. Traffic lights have “beg buttons” for pedestrians to use, god forbid they interrupt the flow of…

"well excuse me for lacking sufficient amounts of metal:-)"
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