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Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

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Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#81

Post by appleiigs »

tw04 wrote: post #55
gmane wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and it's by and large viewed as a complete failure[0]. Is your argument that we should repeat that failure? [0] https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/green-tech/a4266501...

No? I'm not sure why you jumped to attack me when I was simply providing a counter-point to your claim that it's all "oil and gas". I drive an EV, I'm quite happy with it. As to the article: they fail to mention that Japan hasn't even begun to throw in the towel. The newest CEO of Toyota is doubling down on hydrogen powered vehicles. https://www.autonews.com/mobility-report/toyotas-bold-us-pla...

Also, it's not a complete failure according to the article he mentions "The 20-page report doesn’t argue for hydrogen’s complete removal from the energy mix. In fact, REI argues that hydrogen is vital for industries where decarbonization is particularly tricky (think: aviation, shipping, and steelmaking). However, to use hydrogen in place of electrification via other renewable sources is a mistake, REI says."

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#82

Post by xtorol »

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #50
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

Putting two tons of highly toxic and flammable lithium into a car-shaped object just to commute one person a few dozen miles is quite literally insane from all practical points of view. Our ancestors will never believe that we were nuts enough to not only allow this, but actually legally manndate it. They will think it's an urban legend and no ancient people could have been so short-sighted and egotistical.

Any mechanism that can store enough energy to get a car from point A to point B is going to store a nontrivial amount of energy and be subject to some eyebrow-raising failure modes. This applies to gasoline, diesel fuel, batteries, and all flavors of hydrogen.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#83

Post by jjtheblunt »

From the article:

> At the bottom “uncompetitive” end of the ladder are hydrogen cars and domestic heating — which he says make no sense when you have battery-powered electric vehicles (BEVs) and heat pumps.

which begs a question: might we see hybrids with electric motor drive, small batteries for regenerative energy capture, and hydrogen fuel cell for quick refills? That is, hybrids that only involve battery and fuel cell to both drive a single electric powertrain?

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#84

Post by wongarsu »

idontpost wrote: post #13
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

> My gut is that the majority of hydrogen proponents are oil and gas lobbyists or funded by them I don't understand how any one looks at the electric car charging situation and thinks it makes sense to scale that out to 100% of vehicles. A 2 hour wait to get a charger spot isn't a workable transport system.

The envisioned car charging situation is that you charge your car at home or at work. Cars sit unused 99% of the time, they can use that time charging without issues.

What we are experiencing now is transitional, where people use infrastructure intended for road-trips for their daily needs. That phase will pass

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#85

Post by londons_explore »

gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

You know what does make it make sense?

If you can take natural gas out of the ground, split it into hydrogen and CO2 (releasing heat, which can be used to generate electricity), and inject the CO2 back underground to help release more oil and gas.

At this point, you have hydrogen gas.

Sure, you could burn that hydrogen to make more electricity, but it works out financially better if you can directly use it.

The benefit of this approach is it can make use of most of the existing oil and gas infrastructure, and countries sitting on big gas reserves have a use for them.

The downside is it makes minimal sense unless there is some financial disincentive from just burning the gas and releasing the CO2.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#86

Post by MBCook »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #2

Not saying the oil sector is powerless by any means, and I guess maybe they're going for regulatory capture, but this is a non-starter from an economic reality perspective so I'm not too worried about it. The train is well out of the station for electric vehicles. I believe every car maker (save 1 that I know about) is fully committed to 100% electrified vehicles in the not-too-distant future. I feel like eventually…

Would gasoline be anywhere near something people wanted to use if it was taxed to correctly account for its externalities?

Petroleum is a huge industry and they could make a big problem by getting subsidies to make some other fuel look competitive even though it’s a disaster.

Look at biodiesel.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#87

Post by numpad0 »

henearkr wrote: post #23
micromacrofoot wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unfortunately no one's going to be converting existing cars to anything other than scrap metal no matter which technology proves to be the most promising

Well I agree with your other comment, but about this one, retrofitting (ICE->EV) is a thing. Even if very niche for now.

Used Prius is always free and used Tesla is cheaper than a conversion. It never will make sense except for few classic cars.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#88

Post by jacquesm »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #58
jacquesm wrote: post #25

I wish them much good luck, but it's a bit like the dinosaurs complaining about those uppity mammals getting underfoot: their days are numbered. BEVs are here to stay, hydrogen is - as far as I can see - a non-starter except when it comes to heavy traffic and possibly rail or air but even there I have my doubts. Meanwhile BEVs are rapidly building momentum and coupled with solar and wind make very good sense. Even th…

I'm not so sure that BEVs will reach anything close to 100% of all cars on the road. My primary reason is this: as long as you "only" have 10%, 20%, even 30% BEVs the electric charging infrastructure is mostly free, we already have it. But after that, BEVs will require expensive infrastructure to be built in the electricity transmission grid. Think "we need to dig up all of the roads". Because it's not just cars goin…

Yes, that's a good point. But: the grid can be expanded and probably will be expanded. I don't have a BEV but I've run the numbers and it would work very well for me today, it's just that I have an old, non-connected and fairly recently rebuilt car that I'll drive into the ground. But if I were younger and still in the market for a new vehicle I would definitely consider an electric one, though I'd make sure it had LiFePO4 or maybe even LTO in it (not yet available). Battery tech is getting better rapidly now that sufficient funds is pumped into it and I would expect the next two generations to be major improvements over what's on the market today.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#89

Post by tw04 »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #2

Not saying the oil sector is powerless by any means, and I guess maybe they're going for regulatory capture, but this is a non-starter from an economic reality perspective so I'm not too worried about it. The train is well out of the station for electric vehicles. I believe every car maker (save 1 that I know about) is fully committed to 100% electrified vehicles in the not-too-distant future. I feel like eventually…

It's not just Toyota - it does seem to be a Japanese thing. Honda is also actively producing H2 powered vehicles.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42796089/2024-honda-cr-v-...

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#90

Post by forgotusername6 »

idontpost wrote: post #13
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

> My gut is that the majority of hydrogen proponents are oil and gas lobbyists or funded by them I don't understand how any one looks at the electric car charging situation and thinks it makes sense to scale that out to 100% of vehicles. A 2 hour wait to get a charger spot isn't a workable transport system.

Almost all charging is done at home.
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