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Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

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Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#81

Post by ToucanLoucan »

kylebenzle wrote: post #52
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying, and the code is all open source? The word "scam" implies someone is being misled. This is astonishing mental gymnastics. Take the average crypto investor and ask them how the blockchain works. Not marketing fluff: the actual steps in pseudo-code for literally any step of the process. "The code is all there bro" is an astonishing amount of ba…

You have it oddly exactly backwards. I find that people that are not smart enough to understand Bitcoin generally respond by getting mad about Bitcoin or ignoring it. People that first understand it eventually find Monero and BCH and start investing everything they can afford. Of course idiots can be on both sides.

I don't understand the technical intricacies of Bitcoin, that's true. But that's not why I'm mad about it. I'm mad about it because it's socially corrosive. I'm mad about it because tons of people who had no way of knowing better were brought into it and lost everything. I'm mad about the reflexive syllogism that permeates all tech-centered spaces which seems to say:

"If you can be exploited, you deserve to be exploited."

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#82

Post by hollerith »

dukeyukey wrote: post #76
krupan wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are speculating on Bitcoin for different reasons, but many of us are doing so because we have examined it closely and seen it's utility. It is still very early in the adoption phase and so it's hard to see the utility in practice right now, but as you learn more about our current financial system and how Bitcoin works, the potential of Bitcoin is pretty astounding.

Some people are, and a lot of them are here if HN. But the _extreme_ vast majority of people buying Bitcoin wouldn't be interested in it if it had a stable long-term value - they're in it for the speculation.

> the _extreme_ vast majority of people buying Bitcoin wouldn't be interested in it if

I am impressed by your powers of perception! You can probably read my mind, too, and tell me why I do the things I do, at least my major purchasing and investment decisions. It's a little scary knowing that there exists people as perceptive as you. It makes me feel naked almost.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#83

Post by jqpabc123 »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #57
jqpabc123 wrote: post #3

Crypto and NFTs are the ultimate scam. It's wooden nickels, the Brooklyn Bridge and Bernie Madoff all taken to their ultimate logical conclusion --- something with no intrinsic value whatsoever (electrons) is being exchanged for real functioning currency. But what really sets the crypto scam apart is the fact that no is really lying about the fundamental nature of the transaction. No one is hiding the fact that by bu…

The fiat money system also operates on faith, but that faith is in the government so by your definition that's ok I guess. It seems that the modern left is adopting the government as their own. Personally, I trust the government about the same amount as I trust big companies, not at all. In my view the current fiat money system is a very old legalized scam around which there is quite a lot of academic contortion and…

The fiat money system also operates on faith, but that faith is in the government so by your definition that's ok I guess.

Given a choice between the most stable government on the planet and the scam artists running crypto exchanges --- the choice is a no brainer.

Personally, I trust the government about the same amount as I trust big companies, not at all.

But you trust scam artists running crypto exchanges from undisclosed 3rd world locations?

You're lying to yourself.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#84

Post by dragontamer »

dig1 wrote: post #66
dragontamer wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You just described the modern banking system. Yes, the government will give you guarantees for your stored funds to some extent, but when shit hits the fan, you are on your own (example 2008 financial crisis). How much money did your savings account lose in 2008? Or your checking account?

Wrong question. Ask yourself how much value your saving/checking account lose in 2008. Check DXY history for that.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2009/jul/wk2/art04.htm

CPI was deflation for June 2008 to June 2009 yo.

Whatever cash you had that year gained value, not just from interest rates, but also from deflation.

--------

I dunno why you'd pick DXY when CPI or PCE are far more well regarded measures of price fluctuations.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#85

Post by jqpabc123 »

panarky wrote: post #65
jqpabc123 wrote: post #3

Crypto and NFTs are the ultimate scam. It's wooden nickels, the Brooklyn Bridge and Bernie Madoff all taken to their ultimate logical conclusion --- something with no intrinsic value whatsoever (electrons) is being exchanged for real functioning currency. But what really sets the crypto scam apart is the fact that no is really lying about the fundamental nature of the transaction. No one is hiding the fact that by bu…

> no intrinsic value > electrons > entry in a database The most fascinating phenomenon of crypto arguments is that they never change. Fifteen years ago you could find these same unintentionally ironic statements, where the most cutting criticisms of cryptocurrency are equally true of dollars and euros. The only thing missing from this thread (so far) is mysticism about the money supply and confident assertions that d…

dollars are somehow "backed" by the military or tax payments.

They are backed by law --- they are "legal tender". As such, I'm fairly confident I can pay next month's rent with them.

Crypto is backed by --- absolutely nothing.

Pretending you can't see the difference here is lying to yourself.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#86

Post by cjbgkagh »

bri3k wrote: post #77
cjbgkagh wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fiat money system also operates on faith, but that faith is in the government so by your definition that's ok I guess. It seems that the modern left is adopting the government as their own. Personally, I trust the government about the same amount as I trust big companies, not at all. In my view the current fiat money system is a very old legalized scam around which there is quite a lot of academic contortion and…

When I first heard the term 'fiat money system' I thought it was talking about bitcoin. The value exists because some crypto guy says it exists. That is the very definition of fiat. After when I was corrected that they were talking about real currency my first thought was oh, this is a grift. Only scammers try to reverse the meaning of words like this.

The term fiat currency predates crypto by a truly substantial amount of time, it describes an idea which is as old as currency. There is no reversal of meaning, fiat is from Latin ‘let it be done’ it’s value is by decree.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#87

Post by cjbgkagh »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #83
cjbgkagh wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fiat money system also operates on faith, but that faith is in the government so by your definition that's ok I guess. It seems that the modern left is adopting the government as their own. Personally, I trust the government about the same amount as I trust big companies, not at all. In my view the current fiat money system is a very old legalized scam around which there is quite a lot of academic contortion and…

The fiat money system also operates on faith, but that faith is in the government so by your definition that's ok I guess. Given a choice between the most stable government on the planet and the scam artists running crypto exchanges --- the choice is a no brainer. Personally, I trust the government about the same amount as I trust big companies, not at all. But you trust scam artists running crypto exchanges from und…

I don’t trust crypto either. My wealth and focus are entirely wrapped up in business ventures which are inflation resistant.

Also, the US is not the country it used to be so past performance shouldn’t be as indicative of future performance. Particularly the Nixon depegging (Nixon shock) from gold substantially changed the character of the market and the US economy. It takes a long time for the effects to be felt in full and it’s my position that a lot of the current problems originate from that event.

From an outsider to the US the US does not look stable, quite the opposite. It’s not even an old government.

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#88

Post by pfisherman »

dig1 wrote: post #36
jqpabc123 wrote: post #3

Crypto and NFTs are the ultimate scam. It's wooden nickels, the Brooklyn Bridge and Bernie Madoff all taken to their ultimate logical conclusion --- something with no intrinsic value whatsoever (electrons) is being exchanged for real functioning currency. But what really sets the crypto scam apart is the fact that no is really lying about the fundamental nature of the transaction. No one is hiding the fact that by bu…

> No one is hiding the fact that by buying crypto, you are exchanging your legal working currency for nothing more than an entry in a database with no real guarantees of any kind --- legal or otherwise You just described the modern banking system. Yes, the government will give you guarantees for your stored funds to some extent , but when shit hits the fan, you are on your own (example 2008 financial crisis). > All c…

I own stocks that pay me dividends - a share of the company profits. The company manufactures tangible goods, sells them to people, and then distributes some of the profits from these sales to shareholders. The shares I own are a claim on some portion of those profits.

There are plenty of companies that pay dividends. The logic behind stock buybacks is that it achieves a similar end for investors with favorable tax treatment.

In either case I am receiving some portion of the cash flows generated by a business. These cash flows are being generated independently of any stock market activity.

So tell me what claim on an underlying asset / cash flow does a cryptocurrency entitle me to?

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#89

Post by tromp »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #39
JSavageOne wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying, and the code is all open source? The word "scam" implies someone is being misled. How is cryptocurrency any more of a scam than fiat currency, ie. digits in the computer of some private bank or central bank?

> How is it a scam if the people buying it know exactly what they're buying, and the code is all open source? The word "scam" implies someone is being misled. This is astonishing mental gymnastics. Take the average crypto investor and ask them how the blockchain works. Not marketing fluff: the actual steps in pseudo-code for literally any step of the process. "The code is all there bro" is an astonishing amount of ba…

> Runaway deflation is not only a possibility, it is the goal of all of these projects

Not all of them. One [1] has an emission of one coin per second forever, taking a century to get yearly inflation down to 1%.

[1] https://john-tromp.medium.com/a-case-for-using-soft-total-su...

Re: Crypto Fooled Us Once. It Will Fool Us Again

#90

Post by lawn »

krupan wrote: post #61
lawn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Crypto does have utility, but there's only room for one: bitcoin. Except that Bitcoin is very expensive to actually use and isn't private by default. That Bitcoin is the only one with value is only wishful thinking from the Bitcoin maximalists.

Bitcoin is not expensive to use, I'm not sure why you think it is It is far more private by default than our current central bank and credit card system. Could it be better? Maybe. Does everyone want a fully anonymous system? I'm not sure

Not expensive? Is that a joke?

At the moment the average transaction fee is almost $4, but cases of more than $10 or $20 are not uncommon. It has been as high as $50 as well.

It's just too expensive and/or too slow to work for day to day payments.

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