Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It • Hacker News Board

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#81

Post by Ericson2314 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:02 PM UTC

bhouston wrote: post #47

I think that many people struggle at home (group A) while others don't (group B). RTO helps those who struggle at home (group A). And is a major inconvenience to those who excelled at home (group B) but it doesn't significantly degrade them. Thus RTO improves group A performance while not affecting group B performance so it looks like a win overall and in a sense it is. But it is penalizing group B, making their live…

> Working from home is (1) better for the environment

Note that this is not necessarily true. US cities were for a while "NIMBYism vs mandatory commutes". To the extent that one is solved but not the other, we get more car-centric spraw. People commuting less can be offset with them doing more pleasure driving.

(Obvious this depends on the metro area, more remote work in Phoenix Arizona is definitely net good, in NYC not so much.)

Once we solve the NIMBY problem, I'll be a lot more comfortable with the society-wide implications of remote work, but for now it is reducing the impetus to solve a problem that needs to be solved anyways.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#82

Post by tayo42 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

lukefreiler wrote: post #66

mysterydip wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes it stressful? I haven't seen this take before so I'm really curious about this perspective.

I can't speak for myself (I mostly enjoy remote), but I've had team members who had 3 kids of varying ages, on a single income, and simply didn't have the space/opportunity to focus. They were VERY stressed out, and while they voiced a strong preference to work in an office (no longer an option for us), they ultimately choose to move out of our state (Cali) for much more affordable space to solve the problem. From my…

That doesn't make sense to me, what are they doing with their kids if they worked in an office, and why aren't they just doing that?

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#83

Post by DennisP » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

grumblingdev wrote: post #31

TerrifiedMouse wrote: post #11

There are so many “habits” left over from industrial work. On an assembly line everyone needed to be in sync but this generally isn’t true for most office work. You need to be present at the factory to do the work, hasn’t been true for office work for awhile now. Yet we still operate synchronously. Everyone commutes through traffic/crowded public transport and risk catching the latest novel virus, to arrive at work a…

> an assembly line Now imagine working on an assembly line on your feet all day versus your office day job. The people on the assembly line would look at you like the most spoilt people in the world. I personally hated going into the office, but the morale effect is real. I think the main thing is people cannot be trusted to honestly tell you if they work better from the office. It's a nicer life working from home bu…

If management can tell which way gets more work done, then they don't have to rely on workers being honest about it.

If they can't tell the difference, seems to me they should let people have nicer lives.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#84

Post by GenerocUsername » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:04 PM UTC

throwaway290 wrote: post #13

Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

Been remote for 15 years, recently started full time job, love going to office. No strict work hours but I come anyway, nice to chat with colleagues (and much more productive than those tedious calls or text chats). Also I was already making myself leave home at least daily for physical activity, so if I'm out why not travel to the office? There's a nice coffeeshop near there. Also the chair is comfy enough, desk is…

Sounds Nice. If my office was within 15 minutes of home I would be there frequently. Dropping in and out for chit chat and activities.

But it isn't.

The only housing within 35 minutes of my downtown office is small, expensive, high-rise apartments and condos. And there literally are not enough of those to serve the abundance of offices in that area, so it is literally impossible to provide even that meager standard to everyone.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#85

Post by j-a-a-p » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:04 PM UTC

strict9 wrote: post #26

>If I had to give only one bit of advice to anyone ever faced with an ultimatum from someone with power over them (be it an employer or abusive romantic partner), it would be: >Ultimately, never choose the one giving you an ultimatum. This is such great advice. When you are given an ultimatum it is very revealing. Pretend to comply as the author advises, then find something else. Your sense of self-worth is more valu…

Nice to read this confirmation! I like working in the office, but I also received the ultimatum of working in the office and decided to look elsewhere.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#86

Post by Ericson2314 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:04 PM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #72

This is a classic HN post that will get a lot of positive attention here playing into the HN cognitive bias zeitgeist, but I think is mostly bullshit. The market will settle it in the end, but at least for startups being colocated is a competitive advantage.

The blog post is confusing the nature of policy changes being bullshit with the in-office being bullshit.

Star ICs crushing it at remote work doesn't mean star teams; and if their coworkers are avoiding them in reviews it does sound like there are communication issues at play.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#87

Post by tschellenbach » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:04 PM UTC

The discussion here tends to ignore the posts about people working multiple jobs or not working 40 hours a week remotely. Can't have your cake and eat it too

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#88

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:04 PM UTC

zwieback wrote: post #42

Obviously WFH works better for some individuals and it only works for certain job description. What's less clear is whether WFH productivity is relatively high because it leverages structures and relationships that were established pre-pandemic, when working from the office was the norm. It'll be interesting to see what the results of studies a few years down the road show, when there's more data and better metrics.

> What's less clear is whether WFH productivity is relatively high because it leverages structures and relationships that were established pre-pandemic, when working from the office was the norm.

Hasn't there been a massive amount of turnover since the pandemic began?

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#89

Post by rgrieselhuber » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:04 PM UTC

lizardking wrote: post #67

ericfrazier wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why should they?

Unfortunately many people are being strong armed into it. People coming out of lay offs are finding less wfh opportunities than existed just a year ago, as a percentage of the available jobs.

Organization is always the key. The minute people are treated as isolated cases they are exploitable.

Re: Return to Office Is Bullshit and Everyone Knows It

#90

Post by DiggyJohnson » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 4:05 PM UTC

x86x87 wrote: post #4

Two9A wrote: post #3

This is one aspect of the RTO discussion that's sometimes missed: there are plenty of people in the tech sphere (myself included) who've been comfortably remote for much longer than those who were pushed into remote work by lockdowns and pandemic response. We're not about to give up a whole lifestyle we've built over (in some cases) decades, on the whim of whichever executive we happen to be serving under at the pres…

This is not only about before pandemic remote workers. Once people enjoyed the flexibility they aren't going back.

I enjoyed the flexibility of WFH but I still prefer working with local teams in the office. There are pros and cons to both, but it's silly to assume everyone has the same preference as you just because your preference is strongly held.

This is my response to both your comment and TFA. There is less consensus on this topic than the very-vocal WFH crowd would have you believe. I know plenty of other talented engineers that feel similarly to me. They aren't dogmatic about it, but they prefer working with their teammates in the office.