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macOS Containers v0.0.1

macoscontainers.org

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Re: macOS Containers v0.0.1

#81

Post by slonopotamus »

maggit wrote: post #33
highwaylights wrote: post #7

https://github.com/macOScontainers/homebrew-formula "macOS native containers" Cool, this sounds interesting. "Disable System Identity Protection." Eesh.

"System Integrity Protection (SIP)" seems to be the correct name here, for anyone as confused as me :) (More details here: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102149 )

Original author here. Thanks for spotting the typo, fixed.

WRT security implications of disabling SIP - I don't think OS becomes any less vulnerable than usual Linux/Windows installation.

Re: macOS Containers v0.0.1

#82

Post by lloeki »

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #6

How does this work? Fundamentally, containers are about namespace/isolation of a bunch of OS interfaces, so file system functions, network functions, memory management, process functions, etc, can all pretend like they're the only game in town, but crucially without having to virtualize out the kernel. Does XNU have such namespacing functionality across all its interfaces? Furthermore, the existing container ecosyste…

> How does this work?

Essentially, like this:

https://ericchiang.github.io/post/containers-from-scratch/

https://earthly.dev/blog/chroot/

> The way Docker Desktop (and podman.io) implement "containers on macOS" is a bit of a cop-out

It's not, it's a requirement for running Linux containers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37656401

DfM is more like running the CLI locally to a remote Linux machine, and all it does is conveniently expose /Users in the same place through the VM folder share so that you have the convenient illusion that it happens locally.

If Darwin had process namespacing features it would not make it magically able to run Linux processes.

Re: macOS Containers v0.0.1

#83

Post by huijzer »

zuppy wrote: post #63
rafaelmn wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Wouldn't a Linux device, or Linux running on a Mac suit you better? Maybe they want a unixy desktop with working sound ? Half joking, but that's my use case - homebrew is pretty great, most developers use a Mac in my domains of interest so it's always supported. Linux is just too much work (and I'm using Fedora on my desktop). SIP is just false positives and annoyance. I'm on the fence about M/ARM switch since I sti…

depending of what you mean by friction with containers, there may be different solutins. for example, as a temporary solution on Docker when you don't want/have time to support both arm and x86, you can do something like this: FROM --platform=linux/x86_64 ubuntu:23.04 i haven't found any issues with it that i could not get over in the past 2+ years of m1. most of the containers are available on both architectures any…

> i haven't found any issues with it that i could not get over in the past 2+ years of m1.

I'm currently running a Journal of Open Source Software x86 container on aarch64 and it's terribly slow. Takes 12GB of RAM and 3 minutes to build a LaTeX document, see https://github.com/openjournals/inara/issues/30. Any tips?

Re: macOS Containers v0.0.1

#84

Post by dividedbyzero »

orf wrote: post #73
hamandcheese wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what people mean when they say "Homebrew is pretty great", I do not wonder what they mean when they say "Homebrew".

They mean that they have an overall positive opinion of Homebrew, more than “not bad” but less than “amazing”.

As someone who would readily say that Homebrew is pretty great, this is exactly how I feel about Homebrew.

Re: macOS Containers v0.0.1

#85

Post by diogenes4 »

sacnoradhq wrote: post #48
highwaylights wrote: post #7

https://github.com/macOScontainers/homebrew-formula "macOS native containers" Cool, this sounds interesting. "Disable System Identity Protection." Eesh.

> Disable System Identity [sic] Protection. Aaand, it's stillborn. Not happening.

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Re: macOS Containers v0.0.1

#86

Post by prmoustache »

rafaelmn wrote: post #72
devsda wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe they want a unixy desktop with working sound ? In my experience, this has not been an issue for the past 10-15 years atleast. Before that there were some problems with few (external) soundcards or random cpu spikes with the mixers. However, the UX can still improve. Switching audio outputs with multiple outputs like external displays etc is not very smooth or intuitive. Some bluetooth headsets have issues but…

The sound is an internal meme where the linux devops would regularly have to drop off calls to talk (restart to unmute :)). On my desktop I couldn't even boot installer without running with safe mode, otherwise I'd just get stuck on a blank screen (ancient 1050 TI GPU and standard desktop components otherwise, so not exotic/new stuff). I've used linux desktop for >decade and Gnome shell feels like home but these days…

> The sound is an internal meme where the linux devops would regularly have to drop off calls to talk (restart to unmute :)).

Hmmm once every full moon MS Teams running on ungoogled chrome do not seem to realize my Bose BT Headset is paired and available (and in that case I just use the internal soundcard) but I have seen people having sound issues on MS teams and needing to reboot regardless of the OS they were using. Windows, Linux, even some MacOS users so I wouldn't use that as a generalization.

Re: macOS Containers v0.0.1

#87

Post by slonopotamus »

vetinari wrote: post #57
highwaylights wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have these thoughts about Homebrew also. macOS apps have to be signed and notarised to run without a warning, which is a pretty big part of the defence picture for this software - the certificates can be revoked at any time to block the software if malicious behaviour is identified. However, if I install Homebrew, then install python, then install a pip package, there's really no kind of scanning/notarization/check…

> However, if I install Homebrew, then install python, then install a pip package, there's really no kind of scanning/notarization/checking happening at all. There is: you are running that pip package in a chain of processes: Terminal (or iTerm, or whatever) - your shell - python - pip package. In this chain, Terminal has "Developer Tools" privilege, which allows you to run software, that does not meet the system's s…

Yeah, but we need to analyze picture as a whole. And by default, chroot is banned while running as root arbitrary stuff downloaded from the internets is not.

Re: macOS Containers v0.0.1

#88

Post by stonewhite »

urxvtcd wrote: post #71
devsda wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe they want a unixy desktop with working sound ? In my experience, this has not been an issue for the past 10-15 years atleast. Before that there were some problems with few (external) soundcards or random cpu spikes with the mixers. However, the UX can still improve. Switching audio outputs with multiple outputs like external displays etc is not very smooth or intuitive. Some bluetooth headsets have issues but…

Anecdotal evidence, but here it goes. I moved from Linux to M1 MacBook recently. I know my greps and vims, but I was tired of audio glitches during high CPU usage, system not waking up from sleep, total OS freezes, super loud fans, and so on. Now I get none of that. I don't think I've ever heard the fans. Audio just works, everything is super snappy. It always wakes up. I'm no longer afraid of bluetooth. And on top o…

Exactly my experience. After 15 years, I became an apple fanboy in 15 days. I still do hate losing my muscle memory on some bash shortcuts, but I'd say it was very much worth it.

Re: macOS Containers v0.0.1

#90

Post by rebolek »

devsda wrote: post #45
rafaelmn wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Wouldn't a Linux device, or Linux running on a Mac suit you better? Maybe they want a unixy desktop with working sound ? Half joking, but that's my use case - homebrew is pretty great, most developers use a Mac in my domains of interest so it's always supported. Linux is just too much work (and I'm using Fedora on my desktop). SIP is just false positives and annoyance. I'm on the fence about M/ARM switch since I sti…

> Maybe they want a unixy desktop with working sound ? In my experience, this has not been an issue for the past 10-15 years atleast. Before that there were some problems with few (external) soundcards or random cpu spikes with the mixers. However, the UX can still improve. Switching audio outputs with multiple outputs like external displays etc is not very smooth or intuitive. Some bluetooth headsets have issues but…

I'm running Linux everyday and I really wouldn't recommend it for any serious audio stuff.

There is great audio software coming to Linux (Bitwig, Reaper, etc) which is great but the underlying infrastructure is a mess.

There are like 3-4 audio subsystems running, I never know which one is it, setting latency is wizardry and sometimes it doesn't run at all. It's usually fine when I run stuff like Spotify, VLC, or Youtube in Firefox, so for user-level audio, Linux is fine IMO. But when I run something where I care about latency and multichannel output, it's hit or miss. It runs fine one day and then I get no sound on another or distorted sound or sound playing at wrong speed and wrong pitch (yay, 44,1 vs 48).

Maybe it's the distros I'm using, maybe there are some that work better, but the UX isn't as great as with macOS. On Manjaro, update sometimes get audio notification removed from tray and I can't change volume using mouse or dedicated keys. Then I have to look for few hours for a solution only to have the same thing happen again three months later (same with brightness keys on laptop). On Ubuntu Studio with an external soundcard, I get randomly distorted sound or no sound at all. So it's easier to use some shitty onboard sound, great.

I like Linux, I use Linux daily, but sound on Linux is terrible. It's much better than it was, yes, but still terrible. For anything more than "play a song here", macOS is much better.

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