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Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers

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Re: Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers

#81

Post by gjvc »

oneplane wrote: post #31
cassianoleal wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make good workflows on Jira, yes. That doesn't fix the horrible UX, sluggishness, confusing options, forms that present a lot of useless fields but don't give you the option to present other, more useful ones, ... I could go on. Jira is a terrible tool.

Sounds like your experience mostly revolves around older self-hosted JIRA versions? The UX on modern JIRA has been fine for years, and the options and forms are easy to use. Granted, you can add useless restrictions and weird field configurations, but if someone configures it until it's broken, that would be on them, not really on the product.

[flagged]

Re: Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers

#83

Post by gumballindie »

steve1977 wrote: post #77
gumballindie wrote: post #53

Just like code smells, there are workplace smells - practices that indicate a place is meh. Use of atlassian Jira is one such smell.

My blacklist: - Jira - Confluence - Salesforce - Anything SAP, but especially HR products - MS Teams - MS Sharepoint

Teams is high up on the stink list - its steaming.

Re: Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers

#84

Post by benchaney »

criley2 wrote: post #20
asoneth wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience at mid-sized companies the decision is usually made by the development teams themselves who have a choice along a spectrum between a proprietary SAAS solution that may end up costing the company unpredictable amounts of money in the future on one end and a self-hosted open source solution that we have to trust the IT/devops folks to maintain competently on the other. Also in my experience, the compan…

The cold hard math that engineers never want to do is the one involving their own salary. On levels.fyi devops is median $150k in the US, and at that price it means they cost the company a lot more including benefits, taxes, etc. If a "crappy" tool costs $10k/mo for the team and doesn't require much or any devops time to setup and maintain, it's likely cheaper than the $0/mo opensource but requires part or full time…

> If a "crappy" tool costs $10k/mo for the team and doesn't require much or any devops time to setup and maintain, it's likely cheaper than the $0/mo opensource but requires part or full time management option.

This is a total fantasy. There is no reason to expect the crappy enterprise tool that costs money will save time relative to the open source tool. In my experience enterprise tools takes more time and average and cost money. This line of reasoning (frequently pushed by dishonest sales people) is seductive because it tricks you into ignore the time cost of dealing with enterprise, not because it is correct.

Re: Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers

#85

Post by musicale »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #71
logicchains wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Repeat those meetings 3X a week and I developed a visceral objection to Jira. Only later did I realize that what I hated most was actually the pomp and ceremony that came with Jira-toting TPMs Jira's like guns: it can be used for good or evil. But given how bad the worst case can be, would you really want to leave a bunch of rifles lying around your company?

Guns: the only good outcome of a gun is it is never used, virtually all other uses of guns are differing flavors of tragedy Perhaps people don't remember the days of bugzilla as a product, or various CA (computer associates) software. JIRA is bloated and probably inferior now, but it was a far superior option about 15 years ago.

> virtually all other uses of guns are differing flavors of tragedy

Like the Olympic biathlon.

Re: Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers

#86

Post by unixhero »

RamblingCTO wrote: post #46
unixhero wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone else is paying (megacorp) Search is great

The search is great? I have to disagree on that as well.

You can make specific querirs with jql on jira and confluence just works like a google search.

I don't know what you are disagreeing about. I would not buy it myself due to pricing, but when I find it running in corporate land, it is great to use.

Re: Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers

#87

Post by RamblingCTO »

unixhero wrote: post #86
RamblingCTO wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The search is great? I have to disagree on that as well.

You can make specific querirs with jql on jira and confluence just works like a google search. I don't know what you are disagreeing about. I would not buy it myself due to pricing, but when I find it running in corporate land, it is great to use.

I never use the search because it's so bad, it never finds literal matches of a document title for me. I always have to navigate to the pages/star them in order to find stuff.

Re: Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers

#88

Post by slowmovintarget »

dsr_ wrote: post #17
MilStdJunkie wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more or less my life as well. The "finisher argument" that gets rolled out is "product lifetime costs". It goes like this. Open Source Product A will always be your responsibility, which will take X hours off the team's time forever. Vendor Product B will be maintained from the vendor side, thus removing that wildcard of X. Ergo, over the "lifetime" of the product, B will have lower costs than A. Since this a…

Open Source project O will cost your team X hours of time to develop expertise in managing it. Enterprise product E will cost your team X hours of time to develop expertise. O requires install time. E either requires install time or integration time. When O breaks, it is likely that the community has already seen this problem and can provide suggestions via docs, mailing list archives, discussion fora, blogs... Your…

You forgot the cost of Y hours your developers could have spent on A.

This is the actual, non-cynical driver for many of these decisions. An exec is looking at devoting developer time to building or curating software that isn't part of the core competency of the business, and balancing it against staffing product development or IT aimed at the business's specialization.

To make avoidance of E palatable, you have to show that use of O will not only cost significantly less that E, but that using it will also make up for the lost time that you would have spent building A.

I say this as someone who constantly has to justify why we don't just grab some SaaS offering off the shelf and groom it * cough * um... integrate it, rather than continuing investment in the purpose-built "commodity" my team runs.

Re: Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers

#89

Post by criley2 »

benchaney wrote: post #84
criley2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cold hard math that engineers never want to do is the one involving their own salary. On levels.fyi devops is median $150k in the US, and at that price it means they cost the company a lot more including benefits, taxes, etc. If a "crappy" tool costs $10k/mo for the team and doesn't require much or any devops time to setup and maintain, it's likely cheaper than the $0/mo opensource but requires part or full time…

> If a "crappy" tool costs $10k/mo for the team and doesn't require much or any devops time to setup and maintain, it's likely cheaper than the $0/mo opensource but requires part or full time management option. This is a total fantasy. There is no reason to expect the crappy enterprise tool that costs money will save time relative to the open source tool. In my experience enterprise tools takes more time and average…

I think you must be in some terrible giant corporate entity where everything sucks all the time.

I bet you that what I told you about this cost/benefit is being done in every startup that YCombinator funds. I bet you they are all choosing product over staff, because their engineering staff is already their ~largest expense. Their engineers might even cost more than the rest of the company combined including executives.

How many companies are choosing SaaS/PaaS/alltheS so their lean team of engineers can scale to millions, instead of hiring a whole team to manage AWS and docker or whatever ops strategy they have.

You might think it's a total fantasy and in the places you work it may be, but I've been in countless meetings with countless executives where the Google Sheet is busted out featuring engineering cost and tool cost and where cost/benefit is aggressively decided.

Spoiler: it's almost always cheaper to use the tool

Re: Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers

#90

Post by AtlasBarfed »

musicale wrote: post #85
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guns: the only good outcome of a gun is it is never used, virtually all other uses of guns are differing flavors of tragedy Perhaps people don't remember the days of bugzilla as a product, or various CA (computer associates) software. JIRA is bloated and probably inferior now, but it was a far superior option about 15 years ago.

> virtually all other uses of guns are differing flavors of tragedy Like the Olympic biathlon.

What happens more often, a biathlon, or a school shooting?
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