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People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

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Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#81

Post by red-iron-pine »

lm28469 wrote: post #41
rcme wrote: post #13

I always find it weird that people lament population decline. Japan still has a lot of people. Sure, that number is going down now, but you can’t look at the trend and extrapolate that number down to zero. And as the population declines, the number of resources per citizen increases. So people may be better off than before. The largest dangers to Japanese society lie in the transition period, where many elderly peopl…

> I always find it weird that people lament population decline. > The largest dangers to Japanese society lie in the transition period, where many elderly people will need to be supported by relatively fewer working age people. You answered your own question. In a lot of countries the working population pays the pensions, more pensioners and less workers = more stress on the workers. In the long run it's good but it'…

> For example in France it costs about $3k a month to have a small room in a shitty retirement house that is already overcrowded and understaffed

my grandmother had Alzheimer's and her care, in rural WA, was around $9000/month USD. Reasonably new building but still pretty understaffed.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#82

Post by Tor3 »

rayiner wrote: post #74
Tor3 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about that. In my experience, with smaller places I'm familiar with, the cultural input only enriches, there's no degradation (though I am of course aware of certain areas of certain countries where they failed to handle immigration correctly and created isolated ghettos - that never goes well. But it does not have to be that way). "sophisticated set of shared rules and norms" - I don't know what that's…

> “sophisticated set of shared rules and norms" - I don't know what that's supposed to mean. I definitely get a bad feeling from a sentence like that though Why?!

1) What does "sophisticated" mean in this context? What is a "sophisticated" rule, or a "sophisticated norm"?

2) If anything, "a [..] set of shared rules and norms" sounds like an environment which tries to enforce a strict template for how to behave and act and do. If that's really the case then it to me would be a terrible place to be. Like that backwater isolated village with some snooping crones keeping an eye on everything.

If you meant something totally different, please explain. Particularly the "sophisticated" point.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#83

Post by Tor3 »

rayiner wrote: post #79
tptacek wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gross. Anyways: after Jewish people, Mormons are the most pro-immigration religious group in the United States. Consider not using them as an example for the virtues of xenophobia, especially when making appeals to their distinctive culture.

Mormon society is well-functioning for the same reason that Japanese society is well-functioning. People share common values and culture which enables a high-level of social reinforcement of societal rules and norms. The Japanese realize that immigration would destroy their society. The Mormons don't, but that doesn't make it any less true. I find the implicit moral assertion in your post inexplicable. Are you positi…

I'm really scratching my head at the comparison of Mormon society and Japanese society. Have you tried living in Japan?

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#84

Post by yongjik »

rcme wrote: post #13

I always find it weird that people lament population decline. Japan still has a lot of people. Sure, that number is going down now, but you can’t look at the trend and extrapolate that number down to zero. And as the population declines, the number of resources per citizen increases. So people may be better off than before. The largest dangers to Japanese society lie in the transition period, where many elderly peopl…

> And as the population declines, the number of resources per citizen increases. So people may be better off than before.

Japan's resource is its people. Engineers, teachers, government officers, train conductors, and so on. When population declines, the Japanese don't have more resources per people. They just have less resources, period.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#85

Post by rayiner »

Tor3 wrote: post #82
rayiner wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “sophisticated set of shared rules and norms" - I don't know what that's supposed to mean. I definitely get a bad feeling from a sentence like that though Why?!

1) What does "sophisticated" mean in this context? What is a "sophisticated" rule, or a "sophisticated norm"? 2) If anything, "a [..] set of shared rules and norms" sounds like an environment which tries to enforce a strict template for how to behave and act and do. If that's really the case then it to me would be a terrible place to be. Like that backwater isolated village with some snooping crones keeping an eye on…

> 1) What does "sophisticated" mean in this context? What is a "sophisticated" rule, or a "sophisticated norm"?

The rules and norms are complex and encompass a wider and deeper range of behaviors.

> 2) If anything, "a [..] set of shared rules and norms" sounds like an environment which tries to enforce a strict template for how to behave and act and do. If that's really the case then it to me would be a terrible place to be.

Anti-social people don’t like it, to be sure. But it facilitates high trust societies that have lower social transaction costs. Paradoxically, it enables societies that have less formal policing and rule enforcement, because of the high level of informal policing and rule enforcement.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#86

Post by rayiner »

Tor3 wrote: post #83
rayiner wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mormon society is well-functioning for the same reason that Japanese society is well-functioning. People share common values and culture which enables a high-level of social reinforcement of societal rules and norms. The Japanese realize that immigration would destroy their society. The Mormons don't, but that doesn't make it any less true. I find the implicit moral assertion in your post inexplicable. Are you positi…

I'm really scratching my head at the comparison of Mormon society and Japanese society. Have you tried living in Japan?

I’m neither Mormon nor Japanese, so no. But I have visited Utah and Japan, and know quite a few people from both cultures. They share many common characteristics. (As someone from a different part of Asia, Mormons are the most relatable white people to me in terms of the relationship between individuals and society.)

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#87

Post by akerl_ »

rayiner wrote: post #86
Tor3 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really scratching my head at the comparison of Mormon society and Japanese society. Have you tried living in Japan?

I’m neither Mormon nor Japanese, so no. But I have visited Utah and Japan, and know quite a few people from both cultures. They share many common characteristics. (As someone from a different part of Asia, Mormons are the most relatable white people to me in terms of the relationship between individuals and society.)

Isn’t one of the basic tenants of the Mormon community sending their people out to find other people and merging those people into their society?

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#88

Post by skissane »

fomine3 wrote: post #68
skissane wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan already has significant ethnic Korean and ethnic Chinese minorities. And Japanese culture has absorbed a great many influences from both Korea and China over the last 1000 years, so I doubt some more Korean or Chinese immigrants would make any great long-term difference to Japan's culture. It would just be more of what has already been. How many individuals from those ethnic backgrounds might actually want to e…

Both are now become rich and they have same problem (now even more advanced)

In 2021-2022, China was the number two source of immigrants to Australia, after India. If Australia is more successful at attracting Chinese immigrants than Japan, the problem isn't availability of Chinese people wishing to immigrate, the problem is Japan's attractiveness as an immigration destination for Chinese people–and surely that's something Japan can improve if they try.

Also, there a lot of ethnic Chinese people in Australia who are actually from Malaysia or Singapore; Malaysian Chinese want to escape the discrimination of Malaysia's Bumiputera policy; many Singaporeans want an escape from Singapore's cramped living conditions (small apartments). So ethnic Chinese immigrants can be sources from places other than China proper.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#89

Post by freedomben »

akerl_ wrote: post #87
rayiner wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m neither Mormon nor Japanese, so no. But I have visited Utah and Japan, and know quite a few people from both cultures. They share many common characteristics. (As someone from a different part of Asia, Mormons are the most relatable white people to me in terms of the relationship between individuals and society.)

Isn’t one of the basic tenants of the Mormon community sending their people out to find other people and merging those people into their society?

No, not anymore at least. The church used to in its early days (mid 19th century) encourage immigration to Utah (aka "Zion"), but many years ago they declared that "gathering of Zion" should take place where people already are.

Modern-day missionaries try to build up the local church where they are. Some people do end up wanting to emigrate to Utah, but this is not something the Church encourages.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#90

Post by freedomben »

rayiner wrote: post #86
Tor3 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really scratching my head at the comparison of Mormon society and Japanese society. Have you tried living in Japan?

I’m neither Mormon nor Japanese, so no. But I have visited Utah and Japan, and know quite a few people from both cultures. They share many common characteristics. (As someone from a different part of Asia, Mormons are the most relatable white people to me in terms of the relationship between individuals and society.)

FWIW, I was Mormon for many years and grew up (partly) in Utah, and I agree with your analysis.
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