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You're barely managing

barely-managing.bearblog.dev

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Re: You're barely managing

#81

Post by tlarkworthy »

alostpuppy wrote: post #52
angarg12 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of literature in management (definitely in the tech sector) is essentially a long form opinion of a single person. I personally only started to take more seriously the writing of people who a) have been managing for a long while successfully, and b) regularly sync up with other managers so that their pieces aren't a sample size of 1.

Can you give us some links to writings you found particularly inspiring?

My favourite article on technical delivery is so simple and obvious https://www.bti360.com/what-ive-learned-in-45-years-in-the-s... I use it to get people to focus on the basics which is more consequential that grand initiatives and metrics

Re: You're barely managing

#82

Post by NikolaNovak »

giantg2 wrote: post #49
NikolaNovak wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on company and team I suppose; note there are many aspects to "training": 1. Formal training classes, internal or external - many large companies do offer them 2. "Self-serve" internal training - videos and documents etc; again, many large companies do offer them 3. Informal coaching and mentoring - e.g. my boss is constantly providing feedback and mentoring, sometimes in tiny bitesize chunks you can easily m…

Number 1 seems to be getting less common over time in my experience. Number 2 is basically worthless if they don't give you time to do that training and provides you with an actual mentor to discuss things. Number 3 is interesting. Oftentimes the feedback of managers is tainted by politics or anterior motives. Informal mentors can be found, but it seems very rare to me. In many cases in my past, it seems two mentors…

Re #3 - depending on the area, two mentors offering conflicting advice is not inherently bad. I meta-advise my mentees to always get multiple mentors for that specific reason - to better understand what advise/suggestion/knowledge is likely to be universal, vs specific/circumstantial/personal. Other times, there's just more than one way to taxiderm a feline.

Like a surprising number of things, mentorship and advice should be actively sought if you want to benefit from them. It's one of a number of things I thought was automatic/granted early in my career :-/

Re: You're barely managing

#83

Post by ulnarkressty »

ilc wrote: post #57

My $0.02 as an ex Team Lead, and I've been offered management a few times. 1. Leadership is a taught skill. Most people DO NOT realize this. People aren't natural born leaders. You learn by learning the principles of leadership, and practicing them day in and day out. Alas, not everyone leads the same way. We all have our own tricks and style. 2. Communications Skills: This is also a taught skill. Yes, we all have ou…

Can you please share how you learned leadership, communication, negotiation etc. and how you measured your effectiveness as a manager?

This thread is mostly just like these management books - collections of anecdotes disguised as a training manual. Which is incredibly frustrating since most of them can be applied in that particular situation with those particular people. Are there really no principles that can raise your effectiveness in any situation?

Some time ago there was an army manual shared on HN, which taught leadership from first principles. Pure gold, I thought, and read on, until page 4 where the anecdotes of how some captain or other led his men to battle and captured the hill started...

Re: You're barely managing

#84

Post by iamdbtoo »

Propelloni wrote: post #27
iamdbtoo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some the absolute worst managers I've ever had were the ones who were also "management coaches" or trained by them. They just read a bunch of books and blindly applied it to everything and taught others to do the same.

I guess I understand your point, but please consider that competent managers do not fall fully formed from trees. Sure, some are better suited to the role then others, but an average person can become an average manager with time any time. Managers, like programmers or any other professional, start out as novices and get better through experience. Applying book-knowledge to real life and seeing what works and what do…

> I guess I understand your point, but please consider that competent managers do not fall fully formed from trees.

I agree. But in my experience the one quality that makes a good and bad manager is simply considering the humanity of your employees when making decisions.

> Applying book-knowledge to real life and seeing what works and what does not is actually a solid way to learn.

I also agree, but I think you're assuming these managers did this and they did not. If the team was failing it was because the team wasn't following the teachings closely enough and had to be re-educated.

> Maybe you could help managers learn faster by giving them feedback?

These managers are not interested in feedback or learning. Why would they? They already read all the books.

Re: You're barely managing

#85

Post by danielvaughn »

zingababba wrote: post #15
danielvaughn wrote: post #6

I began my first management role a few years ago (through the "successor" path outlined in the article). My manager left for another company, and since I'd been with the team for 4 years at that point, I was asked if I wanted to take over. I agreed, not realizing how much of a shift it was. It's an entirely different profession, and it's made me wonder how realistic the notion of an Engineering Manager is. It's sort…

I've had the misfortune on being on a highly technical team where a thoroughly business minded manager was hired. Most of the team including myself was gone within 6 months. Absolute disaster.

I don't necessarily mean that they need to be thoroughly business minded, just professionally trained as a manager.

Re: You're barely managing

#86

Post by feoren »

gonzo41 wrote: post #43
PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

management is a lifetime of experience and they themselves often don't entirely understand what they're doing. My favorite manager of all time just left me alone and believed everything I told him when communicating back to the business. It was never clear to me if that was on purpose (he trusted me) or if he was just a lazy ass. And I don't care, I loved working for that man. But if you were to ask him to lay out wh…

He probably loved you because you left him alone. You loved him because you're a self starter and didn't want to deal with bullshit and he probably was checked out of life and just wanted to coast. The business you worked for benefited from your goal alignment. Sometimes you have to take non synchronous goals and mash them through a form to press out a result. The middle manager is there drive results, end of story.…

> Just look how finance people manage each other.

Isn't finance in general a dystopian hellscape?

Re: You're barely managing

#87

Post by feoren »

giantg2 wrote: post #49
NikolaNovak wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on company and team I suppose; note there are many aspects to "training": 1. Formal training classes, internal or external - many large companies do offer them 2. "Self-serve" internal training - videos and documents etc; again, many large companies do offer them 3. Informal coaching and mentoring - e.g. my boss is constantly providing feedback and mentoring, sometimes in tiny bitesize chunks you can easily m…

Number 1 seems to be getting less common over time in my experience. Number 2 is basically worthless if they don't give you time to do that training and provides you with an actual mentor to discuss things. Number 3 is interesting. Oftentimes the feedback of managers is tainted by politics or anterior motives. Informal mentors can be found, but it seems very rare to me. In many cases in my past, it seems two mentors…

FYI, it's "ulterior motive" -- an "anterior motive" would be one that is right in front of you; almost the opposite of an ulterior one.

Re: You're barely managing

#88

Post by wholesomepotato »

A SWE team first-most needs leader. Most senior and competent members of the team to focus on the bigger picture, dive into most important details, making commitments, having a decisive say on technical details and taking responsibility for the overall technical results, but not doing the "HR stuff".

Then, in larger teams, there's some room for HR-like stuff - salary negotiation, personal conflicts, carrier growth opportunities, "how are you feeling" kind of stuff.

The managers should only do the later, but most of the time they completely take over the former, becoming clueless jira ticker shufflers, that multiply like rabbits, because they always think "we need more Managers, because I can't keep up with all the jira shuffling and meetings overheads I created".

Re: You're barely managing

#89

Post by phone8675309 »

wrs wrote: post #53
phone8675309 wrote: post #16

> Just imagine if other professions had that split of self-taught vs. formally taught. Plumbers, doctors, _lawyers_... There would be massive variability in the quality of their work and their overall success, and yet that’s the exact gamble every company around the world is taking. Fun fact about lawyers - in many places there's still the ability to enter the profession through the concept of "Reading law" which is…

BTW, doesn’t this quote apply just as well to the typical cohort of software “engineers”?

100% agreed, and I have consistently said that software "engineering" can't be _real_ engineering (by which I mean equivalent to construction, mechanical, chemical, electrical, or aerospace engineering) unless and until you need to hold engineering credentials (with all the attendant responsibilities around continued learning and periodic re-testing) to do it.

Re: You're barely managing

#90

Post by giantg2 »

feoren wrote: post #87
giantg2 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Number 1 seems to be getting less common over time in my experience. Number 2 is basically worthless if they don't give you time to do that training and provides you with an actual mentor to discuss things. Number 3 is interesting. Oftentimes the feedback of managers is tainted by politics or anterior motives. Informal mentors can be found, but it seems very rare to me. In many cases in my past, it seems two mentors…

FYI, it's "ulterior motive" -- an "anterior motive" would be one that is right in front of you; almost the opposite of an ulterior one.

Yeah, my spelling is bad, especially on the phone, and my autocorrect makes it even worse.
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