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Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

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Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#81

Post by wesapien »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #77
wesapien wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did think about it being non-hotswappable but it was a non-factor since I'm optimizing for ergonomics. I already knew I want linear switches and the lower force which was Choc Pro Reds. I don't like the other switch types after trying other keyboards.

For me the first switches I bought felt mushy. You could argue I didn't do my research, but you can end in same place with this Glove, should I get the normal Reds or the Red Pros? Maybe I would like the tactility of the Browns better? Then again what is the point of having a mechanical keyboard without THONC so maybe Whites aren't that bad? With hot-swap you can just buy a set and if you don't love it you don't need…

It boils down to knowing what you really want and what your priorities are. I owned the same mech keyboard for a decade now. I've only tried other types of switches a handful of times.

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#82

Post by colordrops »

hotfixguru wrote: post #74

I love my glove80. Went from 110 WPM to about 10 the first day, practiced a few hours and got to ~60 in a day or two. After a week or two I could comfortably program with it without feeling slowed down. I have no more pain in my left arm after a work day, and I feel like it’s easier to sit with a proper posture.

I'm close to 50yo so i blame my slow uptake on that but I'm finally close to my original typing speed now (also about 110) after a month on the glove80. I'm not quite convinced by it yet as a pragmatic tool but I'm enjoying the hell out of it as something new and interesting. Kind of like driving stick. Had to do a bit of remapping to get it to be usable, as i use the super key a lot for my window manager.

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#83

Post by strongly-typed »

rgoulter wrote: post #31
strongly-typed wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. I’m actually skeptical of some of the claims, particularly in regards to ortholinear/column stagger key arrangements. In particular I feel like this actually makes the layout worse in some situations. For example, consider the `in` bigram in qwerty. It’s one of the most common bigrams in English, and if you switch to most ergo boards, the distance between those keys will _increase_ which will require a bigger s…

> I’m actually skeptical of some of the claims, particularly in regards to ortholinear/column stagger key arrangements. In particular I feel like this actually makes the layout worse in some situations. For example, consider the `in` bigram in qwerty. In different arrangements of keys, some words will be easier to type than others (and some will be more difficult). e.g. Comparing Dvorak and qwerty. -- With the exampl…

The fact is that language is itself not symmetrical (consider 5 major vowels vs 21 consonants and semivowels), so really a better solution is to use a keyboard layout that is optimized to fit a physical arrangement of keys. (Side note: I’ve spent the last three years critically thinking about, learning, and designing a few handfuls of keyboard layouts and keyboard layout analyzers/generators. At the moment, the layouts which works best for me are MTGAP and Graphite, both of which work really well in both an ortholinear and rowstagger configuration. (I also used Dvorak for 15 years prior to switching). Though, the layout iceberg goes pretty deep, so if you don’t like the layouts I mention, there are tons of other layouts to pick from).

The only reason I bring up `in` and ignore the rest of the keyboard is because `in` is right up there with `th` in terms of frequency. Worsening it has a significant and noticeable effect IMO. Though, I could also point to another reason which might make ortholinear not ideal for some people. Consider the left middle finger column on qwerty: EDC. E is simultaneously the most common letter, and also combines with basically every other letter (consider typing `decided`). It’s very common for qwerty typists to use alternative fingerings to avoid the same finger sequences. Commonly you’ll see index finger used for D and C. An ortholinear layout used with qwerty moves D and C further away from the index finger, making the alternate fingerings more difficult/cramped/impossible.

Tangentially, something I think works in the glove80’s favor however is the scooped design. While `in` is pushed further apart, I imagine that the curvature of the keyboard in utilizing the 3rd dimension helps reduce this distance somewhat.

EDIT: Here’s a video demonstrating someone using an ortholinear keyboard with qwerty at an impressive 170+ wpm: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HHFK-GbECWA Note, my comments above have to do with ergonomics. At the end of the day, ~~honey badger don’t care~~ people adapt, and can sometimes get incredibly efficient using tools with dubious ergonomic value. Compare that video with my own using MTGAP and you can immediately see a difference in finger movement: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Msebf_zNaxY

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#84

Post by smrq »

I like but don't love my Glove80. The build quality just feels a little cheap given how decidedly not cheap the price tag is. And the thumb clusters are quite pointy. I do like how the key well shape makes it easy to reach an extra row of keys; I have all my parens and braces below the zxcvb row, where on an ordinary keyboard all the modifiers would be.

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#85

Post by Cannabat »

yyt88 wrote: post #44

I wonder if all those "ergonomic" designs really aim at the right corner of the solution space. What about targetted exercise of involved muscle groups and regular breaks to stretch and relax the tendons/joints/muscles/...? I mean, with our societies sedentary life style, surely exacerbated by programmers sitting for 10+ hours a day, I'm a bit doubtful that moving even less is the answer. What about doing a few simpl…

I'm not sure if taking regular breaks and doing exercises can fully mitigate the RSI and discomfort/pain that drives many to use ergonomic keyboards and input devices.

Personally, my wrists start to hurt after only an hour or two of use of a "normal" keyboard and mouse. It doesn't matter if I've spent the previous 3 months offline doing yoga (getting very thorough full-body movement) or totally absorbed in some computer-y project - "normal" input devices hurt! My shoulders and back are more tolerant, but eventually they start to ache too.

It's likely I didn't take care of myself properly earlier in life, but using a split keyboard and tilted thumb-operated trackball mean I can continue coding without nerve pain.

To be clear, the goal is not exactly to move less - it's to keep the wrists and shoulders in a neutral, less-stressful position.

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#86

Post by chipsa »

GenericDev wrote: post #35

I just want a freaking vertical keyboard. I don't understand why this is so freaking hard to find. Kinesis had the Free Style 2 keyboard[1] that you had to go out of the way to buy a vertical stand with, and it has been my go to keyboard FOR YEARS now because I just can't find any alternatives. I used to use the Kinesis Advantage keyboards, but they mess with my carpal tunnel. As cool as they are the plastic placemen…

The Keyboardio Model 100[0] has 1/4-20 threaded holes (standard tripod) in the bottom, so you can add them onto whatever crazy setup you have that uses that threading. So, you'd have to hack together a stand, probably, but once you do, you can make the stand exactly the way you want it. I've heard of people mounting the keyboard to their chair.

0: https://shop.keyboard.io/pages/model100

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#87

Post by wesapien »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #77
wesapien wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did think about it being non-hotswappable but it was a non-factor since I'm optimizing for ergonomics. I already knew I want linear switches and the lower force which was Choc Pro Reds. I don't like the other switch types after trying other keyboards.

For me the first switches I bought felt mushy. You could argue I didn't do my research, but you can end in same place with this Glove, should I get the normal Reds or the Red Pros? Maybe I would like the tactility of the Browns better? Then again what is the point of having a mechanical keyboard without THONC so maybe Whites aren't that bad? With hot-swap you can just buy a set and if you don't love it you don't need…

Browns are apparently the best (most) selling switch type.

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#88

Post by XenophileJKO »

dharmab wrote: post #48
yyt88 wrote: post #44

I wonder if all those "ergonomic" designs really aim at the right corner of the solution space. What about targetted exercise of involved muscle groups and regular breaks to stretch and relax the tendons/joints/muscles/...? I mean, with our societies sedentary life style, surely exacerbated by programmers sitting for 10+ hours a day, I'm a bit doubtful that moving even less is the answer. What about doing a few simpl…

It's not either or. I switched to ErgoDox after I broke my wrist years ago. Even with surgery, OT and exercise, regular keyboards don't feel comfortable anymore for more than a few minutes at a time. (I also had to switch my wristwatch to the other hand.)

Still highly recommend the fully contoured options. I have 2 Advantage, an ErgoDox, and a custom built split contoured similar to Advantage 360.

The contouring significantly lowers the movement for your fingers.

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#89

Post by microtonal »

yyt88 wrote: post #72
microtonal wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the thing, you don’t have issues until you have them. And then you wish that you cared earlier. In hindsight I with I’d gotten that adjustable desk and (then) Kinesis Advantage ten years ago. But then I thought it’s a waste of money and I’m doing fine with my Apple keyboard.

In hindsight, would it have helped you as well doing targeted exercising? It's understandable that a tech community immediately turns to tech as a solution to problems, but it may not be the best solution, or at least not the only one available.

I have been doing targeted exercising for a longer period. It helped, but didn't solve my issues.

I believe in a multi-faceted approach. Exercises are great, even necessary. But avoiding pronation in the other 55 minutes of an hour, letting the blood flow, is also useful.

Why should it just be one thing?

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#90

Post by d5ve »

I use a Glove80 keyboard, and even after 4 months I'm not back to my normal typing speed! This has cost me a fair bit of productivity, and was stressful at times. Almost feeling like I'd suffered a bit of brain damage, where I could picture what I wanted to do, but be unable to type it out.

Having the modifier keys in the thumb cluster feels a lot less awkward than using my left-hand little finger at odd angles. And I like the fit and finish and customisation.

Overall though, I think I would have been better served by a regular qwerty, not columnar, split keyboard. Maybe my middleaged brain ain't plastic enough any more.

Plus I think the benefits of columnar are oversold. If I naturally curl my fingers in and out, they kinda fan in and out, rather move in parallel straight lines. And the right hand side of a regular keyboard matches that movement pretty well. The left hand side is backwards of course.

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