Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not sure shutting down nukes and extending the life of coal power plants (or going all-in on Russian gas) was great for the air or water.
I wish your comment was better.
Japan starts release of Fukushima’s treated radioactive water
81–90 of 93 posts
Re: Japan starts release of Fukushima’s treated radioactive water
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Because that's not how dilution works ... >But you didn't even do basic research did you? It makes sense BECAUSE that's exactly how dilution works. Diluting in Japanese lakes (or just the closest) is still as safe as diluting the fucking ocean because japanese lakes are also fucking massive relative to volume of water to be released. Politicians chose ocean because domestic politics. Use your brain and do some basic…
Ok, lets take this at face value. Does any, and I do mean literally any country on this planet, dump their tritium water in the local lake? Problem 1 : Water extraction Extracting large volumes of water, is naturally not a ecologically friendly practice. It's actually one of the large barriers stopping us from solving water issues via large scale desalination. Ecological damage includes animals being sucked in, to hi…
Ultimately, regardless of feasibility, it's simply a solution which they didn't even consider, because again, as you recognized why would they. That's politically suicide even if it's deemed ecologically sound plan. Which circles back to your first point, does any country dump tritium in their local lake? Not publically, and Fukushima is notoriously public politics. But you know what most try to do with nuclear waste? They attempt to engineer supremely expensive local storage solutions, and frequently fail only to spend stupid resources to warehouses it domestically, instead of dumping that into the commons. It's 60 olympic swimming pools worth of water. It's trivial storage problem for nation state. Hence problem 1/2/3 isn't even a problem especially if they bothered with local dumping studies which again, is 3 tankers per day for 30 years. It's nothing. Desalinating 1.25m tons is also trivial, and not even that costly. A 10m gallon / day plant cost less than 100M and sort filter that in a month. Which is peanuts versus aggregate clean up cost, and even potential lost fishing revenue. Cost isn't driving this decision to release, politics is. And it's not regional geopolitics because JP isn't releasing this water out of spite for her neighbours. Let's not forget, it's not PRC but most of region as well as countries across the Pacific not pleased with this decision.
Which ultimately circles back to point 4, and my broader point. LOCALs don't like it. LOCALs vote. Can't risk LOCAL votes even if they're irrational, and EVEN worse if their rational distrust of TEPCO becomes reality down the line. IIRC even more containated water already leeched into ground water. Risk of future leaks, however "safe" this water is, and heads will roll. So the politically expedient solution is to dump into ocean and remove any potential risk. The political math is simple, they would never even consider local disposal or long term local storage due to the risks, so into the ocean it goes. Which again, is fine. Fine in the sense that it's a calculated decision. But let's just acknowledge that's whats actually driving decision making. Less science and more domestic JP politics. They didn't have to dump this water. A 5T economy can afford to store it indefintely and ignore geopolitical shit show. But domestic JP politics want that water gone from JP territory, so into the ocean it goes.
Re: Japan starts release of Fukushima’s treated radioactive water
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is water that qas involved with a nuclear reactor. Yes, people are that afraid of nuclear.
The greens of the 80's did so much more harm than good. If we'd built the capacity then, we'd have a whole lot less carbon in the atmosphere today.
Many facilities (back then and now) where unsafe (e.g. Ukranie) and are still a threat (e.g. France)
Add to that the short sighted actions by everyone involved. (DROPPING barrels in an abandoned mine for final storage, just to find out it does not only totally leak, but advisors precisely warned about it beeing not a suitable location (germany))
For me that's enogh to loose trust in governments and companies beeing able to run such an operation. Fukushima beeing the final nail to this coffin for many.
Maybe when we can proof the reliability, safety and waste efficiency of modern reactor systems, we can rebuild this trust. But either way, we are surely talking 20-60 years. It's scorched earth.
Re: Japan starts release of Fukushima’s treated radioactive water
#84Re: Japan starts release of Fukushima’s treated radioactive water
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
The greens of the 80's did so much more harm than good. If we'd built the capacity then, we'd have a whole lot less carbon in the atmosphere today.
The management of the establishment was what killed the vibe for fission energy. And in this regard the greens where right. Many facilities (back then and now) where unsafe (e.g. Ukranie) and are still a threat (e.g. France) Add to that the short sighted actions by everyone involved. (DROPPING barrels in an abandoned mine for final storage, just to find out it does not only totally leak, but advisors precisely warned…
And this is a massive political issue with which the Green parties collect millions of votes. Meanwhile "of 265 US power plants that monitor groundwater, 242 report unsafe levels of at least one pollutant derived from coal ash" - so instead of the small potential of ground water contamination from a small number of nuclear plant waste barrels, people passively chose the almost certainty of ground water contamination by leachate containing arsenic, barium, beryllium, boron, cadmium, nickel, lead, mercury, molybdenum, selenium and thallium - a chunk of it radioactive.
But it got votes.
Re: Japan starts release of Fukushima’s treated radioactive water
#86> Japan says all radioactive elements have been filtered out except tritium, which is hard to remove from water. The hydrogen isotope is also discharged – at higher levels – by operational nuclear power plants, including in China and France. > That water will contain about 190 becquerels of tritium per litre, below the World Health Organization drinking water limit of 10,000 becquerels per litre, according to Tepco.…
Napkin math of 1.25 million tons of water is about 34,000 tanker trailers, or 3 a day over 30 years. So why doesn't JP just dump it in Lake Inawashiro a couple hours drive west? It's safe after all. Cost seems trivial. Except no one trusts TEPCO. Least of all the Japanese. Why would region trust JP any more? Dumping is offloading a domestic political problem to an international one because radiation + Japan + politcs…
Seriously, I have a hard time assuming good will from your post if you do not try to differentiate the amount of dilution happening in a 100km2 50m deep lake vs a 100,000,000km2-sized 5,000m deep ocean.
Re: Japan starts release of Fukushima’s treated radioactive water
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
The greens of the 80's did so much more harm than good. If we'd built the capacity then, we'd have a whole lot less carbon in the atmosphere today.
The management of the establishment was what killed the vibe for fission energy. And in this regard the greens where right. Many facilities (back then and now) where unsafe (e.g. Ukranie) and are still a threat (e.g. France) Add to that the short sighted actions by everyone involved. (DROPPING barrels in an abandoned mine for final storage, just to find out it does not only totally leak, but advisors precisely warned…
The design, deployment, regulatory/political hurdles, and the long operational lifetime of nuclear power plants, make that any improvements take a loooonng time to bear fruit.
Inertia of the installed base with its problems (and history), makes new development near-impossible.
That situation propably won't improve until newer designs accumulate a multi-decade track record of safety, or fusion power gets commercialized.
Re: Japan starts release of Fukushima’s treated radioactive water
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
These facts won't convince people who believe in homeopathy, of which there are plenty. Of course there shouldn't be a controversy, but it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that there is, considering the amount of anti-scientific sentiments in the general population.
If I shit in the ocean, does the ocean become highly potent and poisonous because its highly diluted shit?
In the ocean: bacteria food -> plant food -> fish food.
Re: Japan starts release of Fukushima’s treated radioactive water
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ok, lets take this at face value. Does any, and I do mean literally any country on this planet, dump their tritium water in the local lake? Problem 1 : Water extraction Extracting large volumes of water, is naturally not a ecologically friendly practice. It's actually one of the large barriers stopping us from solving water issues via large scale desalination. Ecological damage includes animals being sucked in, to hi…
You're drawing some arbituary point of even more negligible dilution when mathematically, flat out dumping everything straight into Inawashiro is still merely 1% of WHO limit for safe drinking water. It would already be adequately diluted for human health. It's already likely sufficiently negligible considering the ratio of solution:solvent. Spread that over 30/50 or whatever years over water cycles and different loc…
And also like Prickle says it's all moot because releasing it into the ocean is the better solution - in terms of cost, risk, dilution effectiveness, and political feasibility. Maybe their fishing industry would be impacted less if they dumped it in a lake - although I suspect the effect will be temporary as the global market reconfigures itset, and South Korea already bans fish and agricultural products from Fukushima, and Japan was already headed toward a trade war with China for other geopolitical reasons. There would also be economic impacts as a result of dumping it in Lake Inawashiro - for example to tourism in the Lake Inawashiro area. Is that a good trade-off? I don't think the answer is as obvious as you claim.
And I don't know how you can claim "it's simply a solution which they didn't even consider" - were you there in the room when the engineers were drawing up ways to treat the wastewater before deciding on this one? Honestly I find it perplexing that you are so fixated on this notion that because they didn't choose some suboptimal solution to dispose of waste water, somehow that is emblematic of "Japanese domestic politics at it's worst".
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_r...
Re: Japan starts release of Fukushima’s treated radioactive water
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ok, lets take this at face value. Does any, and I do mean literally any country on this planet, dump their tritium water in the local lake? Problem 1 : Water extraction Extracting large volumes of water, is naturally not a ecologically friendly practice. It's actually one of the large barriers stopping us from solving water issues via large scale desalination. Ecological damage includes animals being sucked in, to hi…
You're drawing some arbituary point of even more negligible dilution when mathematically, flat out dumping everything straight into Inawashiro is still merely 1% of WHO limit for safe drinking water. It would already be adequately diluted for human health. It's already likely sufficiently negligible considering the ratio of solution:solvent. Spread that over 30/50 or whatever years over water cycles and different loc…
Fundamentally, the complaint is that the tritium water will cause environmental damage. => And will lead to damage to humans. If we go down to the roots of the issue, it has not, and never was centered around whether the bq/L was below human drinking limits. It has always been about whether the bq/L amount is safe for the environment. That's why I brought up the natural range in the first place. If anything, claims about it being safe to drink have been a distraction brought up to placate protestors. (And it misses the point)
Therefore, the powerplant should be (and has been) required to reduce environmental effects. When it comes to controlling the Catastrophically F'd reactors, they've been less than capable to say the least. But that's not explicitly related to the tritium water we are discussing about right now.
So, the goal should be to minimize environmental damage. In order to better ensure that, the Tritium water should not cause a major change in composition of the water. Therefore, the bq/L of tritium in water, should preferably, not change beyond the naturally expected amount. (ie: 0.4–1.2 bq/L) Hence why I brought up how your solution violates that basic idea, while the sea release does not. I even showed you the very basic napkin math that made me come to that conclusion.
You do realize, one of the other proposed solutions was actually release by air? After all, Tritium is an isotope of Hydrogen. That plan was specifically dropped because the amount of expected tritium per cubic liter of air, would be greater than when released in water. The decision from the start, has been about minimizing the becquerels per cubic liter. Certainly, the government would accept nothing else.
I should point out, the water is more dangerous when stored. By default, the stored water has a significantly higher concentration until it is diluted. Certainly, higher than the safe level. A leak from the tanks would cause significantly more environmental damage. Just like with aircraft design, where every contingency is considered, we must also consider every contingency for when that containment fails. History has shown us multiple times, that inevitably, even the best built systems are destroyed by human error.
Quite frankly, your complaints are more arbitrary than mine. You are proposing that Japan should take the concerns of uninformed individuals, over the concerns and claims made by professionals.