Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation • Hacker News Board

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#81

Post by theshrike79 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 5:33 PM UTC

jinder wrote: post #47

theshrike79 wrote: post #4

I have acid reflux and possibly a mild hiatal hernia. When it triggers in Just The Right Way, I also get severe panic attack symptoms. When I started investigating it (my coping mechanism during panic attacks) I discovered that the vagus nerve travels next to the esophagus through the diaphragm. So my complete layman explanation was that the stomach pushes through the diaphragm during a hiatal hernia -> it rubs again…

Famotidine an old school H2 antihistamine used for acid reflux (pre PPIs), was found to have an additional mechanism of action via activation of the vagus nerve to inhibit pro-inflammatory cytokines in covid (via alpha 7 nicotinic acetylcholine receptor (α7nAChR) signal transduction - https://molmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-022... ). It has also been used quite extensively to combat post-covid neurop…

One thing that really helped me was just going to the gym. Basically strengthening my core improved my posture so that my esophagus isn't as crooked due to shitty posture.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#82

Post by theshrike79 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 5:37 PM UTC

davzie wrote: post #70

theshrike79 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a vague recollection that I was tested well over a decade ago and the result was that I have really mild stomach acid and/or not enough of it. Basically if I eat stuff that digests slowly (fats and red meat), it takes my stomach a LONG time to actually break it down and move it forward. If I shove more stuff in there before it's done -> bad time. I lost over 10kg during the worst episodes in about 9 months, I…

Sounds really awful. Sorry to hear that! I wonder if this would have happened many years ago before modern agriculture and all the awful stuff that is present in our foods. I wonder if our environments are causing this lack of stomach acid / enzymes in people. This can’t surely have been happening when we were hunter / gatherers!

There are theories about how our modern wheat for example is vastly different from what it was 50+ years ago, something in the structure has changed so that there's "more" wheat, but it's just fluff - all the good stuff has been modified out to get the maximum weight of wheat at the cost of quality.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#83

Post by gottorf » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 5:38 PM UTC

davzie wrote: post #70

theshrike79 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a vague recollection that I was tested well over a decade ago and the result was that I have really mild stomach acid and/or not enough of it. Basically if I eat stuff that digests slowly (fats and red meat), it takes my stomach a LONG time to actually break it down and move it forward. If I shove more stuff in there before it's done -> bad time. I lost over 10kg during the worst episodes in about 9 months, I…

Sounds really awful. Sorry to hear that! I wonder if this would have happened many years ago before modern agriculture and all the awful stuff that is present in our foods. I wonder if our environments are causing this lack of stomach acid / enzymes in people. This can’t surely have been happening when we were hunter / gatherers!

> This can’t surely have been happening when we were hunter / gatherers!

Or it did, and those people died and we no longer have any record of them. That's entirely possible, I suppose.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#84

Post by pegasus » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 5:39 PM UTC

adriand wrote: post #69

blueyes wrote: post #56

For me, the amazing thing about the Vagus nerve is that you can stimulate it with your breathing. And since the Vagus nerve affects the autonomic nervous system (involuntary, not consciously controlled) while breathing choices are conscious, this is one of the few ways that humans can directly impact important aspects of their psychology and physiology, like how calm they feel. Mindfulness + breath choices + vagus ne…

This might go beyond how you feel and into direct biological impacts. I don’t listen to the Huberman Lab podcast much these days but I did listen to the episode with David Linden, which I found quite interesting. [1] At one point, they are discussing the mind/body axis and the latest scientific developments in exploring how mental states can affect the body. There is a fascinating although very untested - but, testab…

Well put.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#85

Post by rgrieselhuber » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 5:41 PM UTC

blueyes wrote: post #56

For me, the amazing thing about the Vagus nerve is that you can stimulate it with your breathing. And since the Vagus nerve affects the autonomic nervous system (involuntary, not consciously controlled) while breathing choices are conscious, this is one of the few ways that humans can directly impact important aspects of their psychology and physiology, like how calm they feel. Mindfulness + breath choices + vagus ne…

I first learned about it when studying martial arts, years later science is just starting to realize how important it is.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#86

Post by jconley » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 5:45 PM UTC

davzie wrote: post #25

theshrike79 wrote: post #4

I have acid reflux and possibly a mild hiatal hernia. When it triggers in Just The Right Way, I also get severe panic attack symptoms. When I started investigating it (my coping mechanism during panic attacks) I discovered that the vagus nerve travels next to the esophagus through the diaphragm. So my complete layman explanation was that the stomach pushes through the diaphragm during a hiatal hernia -> it rubs again…

I spent 6 years trying everything to solve reflux. I am a relatively fit 35 year old. I tried antacids, PPIs, H2 blockers and these just exacerbated the issue over time. Eventually after much reading I read that without enough stomach acid, food backs up and causes reflux. It also causes the LES to not close properly. So I started taking Betain HCL and Digestive Enzymes (Solgar ones) before I eat and I can't tell you…

I'll have to try this! I have reflux or heartburn daily if I don't do things right. A few things help me.

1) Don't have an empty stomach. My stomach goes crazy. 2) Don't overeat. Large portions cause it nearly every time. 3) Don't eat anything within 2 hours of bed time.

So, basically, if I eat small meals often I am usually fine. And then there are trigger foods like too much coffee and alcohol and red sauces, and garlic and other things that cause indigestion.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#87

Post by CobaltFire » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 5:46 PM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #55

CobaltFire wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve had recurring issues exactly like that for years. You have just given me something to look for (hiatal hernia) as that matches my symptoms. Thanks!

I'm pretty sure I had a semi-severe case of hiatal hernia, but when the doctor shoved a camera down my throat to check, he actually fixed it by accidentally pushing the hernia down :D Most of my worst symptoms went away after the checkup, but it took a LONG while for my digestive tract to fully heal. I couldn't burp at all for ... maybe two years, the pressure just stayed in my stomach. Drinking small amounts of fizz…

It's interesting you say that, because since I had a camera shoved down my throat two years ago I haven't had symptoms until last week (I was ~35km into a 40km bike ride and it was a VERY sudden onset during a climb).

I'll talk to my GP this week when I see him.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#88

Post by lr4444lr » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 5:47 PM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #73

jbandela1 wrote: post #51

> One thing that makes the vagus nerves so attractive is surgical accessibility in the neck. “It is quite easy to implant some device that will try to stimulate them,” says Dr Benjamin Metcalfe at the University of Bath, who is studying how the body responds to electrical vagus nerve stimulation. Did these (with supervision) during residency. As far as neurosurgeries go, fairly simple. You just have to be careful whe…

I did some work on DBS devices. Yeah, that's an intense surgery. The MD doing the implantation was a rockin' bitch-ass motherfucking stone cold killer. Sorry for all the curse words, but that's the best way to describe her. I've never been near someone so dead calm no matter what. Just ice in the veins. She was ~6'5" and wore 6" stilettos all the time. That surgeon had presence . I'd never want to meet her in a back…

ML for how to direct implantation, or the signals it produced?

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#89

Post by blue_dragon » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 5:57 PM UTC

albntomat0 wrote: post #7

theshrike79 wrote: post #4

I have acid reflux and possibly a mild hiatal hernia. When it triggers in Just The Right Way, I also get severe panic attack symptoms. When I started investigating it (my coping mechanism during panic attacks) I discovered that the vagus nerve travels next to the esophagus through the diaphragm. So my complete layman explanation was that the stomach pushes through the diaphragm during a hiatal hernia -> it rubs again…

I'm in a very similar situation as you with EoE, acid reflux, and a confirmed mild hiatal hernia. The anxiety seems to line up as well. Have you found any additional solutions, past the standard PPI and diet for acid reflux? Thanks!

Hijacking your comment to share my story and ask for advice.

I have diagnosed EoE, I've had it for my whole life. I'm currently on 80mg omeprazole daily and an elimination diet. This helps a lot but is not a cure. I've also experienced benign heart palpitations for my whole life (confirmed by a cardiologist). For a long time, I've had a hunch that the two were connected.

On days when I have EoE flare-ups, I feel some pain and swelling in my esophagus, as though I have a bad chest cold. Food and liquids tend to linger in my esophagus for longer. Another unusual side effect is that, on days when my EoE flares up, I tend to experience frequent heart palpitations, most commonly right after consuming food or water.

Since the vagus nerve travels through the chest, adjacent to both the heart and the esophagus, I think the mechanism of action is this: the inflammation in my esophagus stimulates the vagus nerve, making a palpitation more likely. This inflammation also causes food and liquid to travel through the esophagus more slowly, which stimulates the vagus nerve further. The combined stimulus from inflammation and food or liquid can irritate the vagus nerve enough to cause heart palpitations.

Obviously I would like to cure both my EoE and palpitations, as they're currently the two biggest detriments to my quality of life. And inflammation due to an overactive immune system is the cause of EoE. So the possibility of reducing immune system inflammation just by stimulating the vagus nerve is very appealing to me.

If anyone reading this has an experience, opinion, research, suggestion, or anything they'd like to share, I'd love to hear it. I'm going to experiment with baking soda and famotidine to reduce inflammation, since I read in the above threads that either of those could work. But if there's some simple hack I can employ to reduce my symptoms (meditation/breathing technique, physical exercise, a stimulation device I can buy, some additional OTC medication I can take, etc), I love to hear it.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#90

Post by xgb84j » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

adriand wrote: post #69

blueyes wrote: post #56

For me, the amazing thing about the Vagus nerve is that you can stimulate it with your breathing. And since the Vagus nerve affects the autonomic nervous system (involuntary, not consciously controlled) while breathing choices are conscious, this is one of the few ways that humans can directly impact important aspects of their psychology and physiology, like how calm they feel. Mindfulness + breath choices + vagus ne…

This might go beyond how you feel and into direct biological impacts. I don’t listen to the Huberman Lab podcast much these days but I did listen to the episode with David Linden, which I found quite interesting. [1] At one point, they are discussing the mind/body axis and the latest scientific developments in exploring how mental states can affect the body. There is a fascinating although very untested - but, testab…

I think these eastern concepts (e.g. meditation concepts such as chakras, "organs" in traditional chinese medicine) are not meant as objective truths, but rather as useful mental models. Different mental models used in the same culture often contradict one another, which only makes sense if you don't see them as ultimate truth.