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Slavery's last stronghold

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Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#81

Post by Zimahl »

tomkin wrote: post #75
tomkin wrote: post #50

This problem, like many problems in the world are often examined only a few layers deep. The conclusions are always the same: Poverty/Slavery are the consequence of corruption, or an evil dictator of some kind. While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventua…

Noticing some of my comments are being down-voted. No problem with opposing opinion or criticism, but when there is a void of space under my comment where your rebuttal should be and my comment was down-voted, I have to think that you just don't like what I am saying . As I see it, if I've said something inflammatory or if I refuse to debate further beyond talking points, I should accept the fate of the down-vote. I'…

I didn't vote you down but it you want a critique, I'll oblige.

First, you start off with a promising statement about the correlation between slavery and dictatorship. Unfortunately, your following paragraphs have almost nothing to do with it. You quickly delve into a anti-religion rant which uses a poor metaphor involving Toyota.

I got your point in the end but I'm probably one of the few that made it that far. It's just easier to dismiss you by the third paragraph and down vote. Although I cannot down vote (not enough karma), I don't think I'd up vote you either.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#83

Post by tomkin »

ars wrote: post #80
tomkin wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noticing some of my comments are being down-voted. No problem with opposing opinion or criticism, but when there is a void of space under my comment where your rebuttal should be and my comment was down-voted, I have to think that you just don't like what I am saying . As I see it, if I've said something inflammatory or if I refuse to debate further beyond talking points, I should accept the fate of the down-vote. I'…

Your comments are being downvoted because claiming religion is the cause of slavery and all of the worlds ills is so patently silly that people see no reason to refute you in words. You did say the "sword that is wielded" so I guess you have some realization that it's not the cause, only the effect - but then the rest of your post (and your other ones) go on to try to claim that religion is the cause. You also don't…

> Your comments are being downvoted because claiming religion is the cause of slavery and all of the worlds ills

OK. Your claim is my argument sweeps wholesale opinion, but then you make a wholesale opinion of what I meant when I said X. All of the worlds ills? No. Any specific issue? No. A major contributor? Absolutely. I didn't say that a religious-free world would be a slavery-free one. I am saying there would be less slavery overall. Not sure how that could be argued without removing parts of the story.

> You also don't seem to realize that the moral code you live by...

Another assumption.

> is basically arbitrary (different countries feel differently about these things without any religious thought getting involved) and to a million mile observer is indistinguishable from a religion.

You're taking ideals like 'capital punishment' and casting them into a 'religious ideal' for the purpose of comparing them directly. Pretty sure debt slavery, corporal punishment and capital punishment are variable dependant on the state of what you might consider a low wage, or how wrong it is to trade stocks with privileged information. We alter these ideals based on new information. Religion doesn't do this. The book that tells people to behead unbelievers today is the same book from hundreds of years ago. Religion is unyielding and doesn't evolve. Especially the kind that enslaves people. It's pretty absurd for you to suggest religion is as much of a variant as corporal punishment for adults, debt slavery, age of consent, capital punishment - regardless of distance.

> I bet you have strong opinions on all those things I mentioned,

Assumption.

> and you don't realize your opinion is basically a religious one taught to you as a child.

Except if new information is presented that is different than what I believe, I don't ignore it or stick my head in the sand hoping for the 'armageddon/rapture/other ridiculous event' to come to take me away. Facilitating ignorance isn't a strong point.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#84

Post by tomkin »

Zimahl wrote: post #81
tomkin wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noticing some of my comments are being down-voted. No problem with opposing opinion or criticism, but when there is a void of space under my comment where your rebuttal should be and my comment was down-voted, I have to think that you just don't like what I am saying . As I see it, if I've said something inflammatory or if I refuse to debate further beyond talking points, I should accept the fate of the down-vote. I'…

I didn't vote you down but it you want a critique, I'll oblige. First, you start off with a promising statement about the correlation between slavery and dictatorship. Unfortunately, your following paragraphs have almost nothing to do with it. You quickly delve into a anti-religion rant which uses a poor metaphor involving Toyota. I got your point in the end but I'm probably one of the few that made it that far. It's…

> First, you start off with a promising statement about the correlation between slavery and dictatorship. Unfortunately, your following paragraphs have almost nothing to do with it. You quickly delve into a anti-religion rant which uses a poor metaphor involving Toyota.

If this was a review for a movie, you nailed it. Metaphor definitely not my best. It was an anti-religious rant. Thank you for noting that. Hopefully you'll dive into more detail as to why you feel differently?

> It's just easier to dismiss you by the third paragraph and down vote.

Nope. Guess not.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#85

Post by blafro »

tomkin wrote: post #70
ajuc wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Atheists are, by nature, less violent. Not because they are somehow enlightened, but because there is at least one major grievance removed from the equation. Atheists don't tend to burn down other buildings because they are different, or ravage an entire community because they aren't secular. Replace atheists with "people that think independly", and I could agree. As it is I cannot. One counterexample - most of the…

> most of the people in the Red Army were atheists. Orthogonal. The Red Army, nor Nazis used their atheism as a "guiding light" or a tool to get people to do what they wanted – they used military force. > They instead developed new rituals and mythology to serve the same purpose. Yes. It's called a religion. > Gods are not needed to make people kill people. God and religion aren't the same. Scraping religion doesn't…

Wow. Talk about being blinded by religion. (In this case atheism).

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#86

Post by Zimahl »

tomkin wrote: post #84
Zimahl wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't vote you down but it you want a critique, I'll oblige. First, you start off with a promising statement about the correlation between slavery and dictatorship. Unfortunately, your following paragraphs have almost nothing to do with it. You quickly delve into a anti-religion rant which uses a poor metaphor involving Toyota. I got your point in the end but I'm probably one of the few that made it that far. It's…

> First, you start off with a promising statement about the correlation between slavery and dictatorship. Unfortunately, your following paragraphs have almost nothing to do with it. You quickly delve into a anti-religion rant which uses a poor metaphor involving Toyota. If this was a review for a movie, you nailed it. Metaphor definitely not my best. It was an anti-religious rant. Thank you for noting that. Hopefully…

> Hopefully you'll dive into more detail as to why you feel differently?

You didn't ask for why I felt different (to be honest, I don't necessarily), you asked for why you were getting down voted. While sometimes you get down voted for an unpopular view (which I don't think is fair as long as your view makes sense), I felt that you might've been down voted for the lack of clarity in your post.

Then I get down voted for an honest response. Lovely. Sometimes I don't know why I even bother with HN because the karma system is quite a bit of fail. It appears that the early adopters can down vote to their hearts content but those of us who haven't been around as long can only up vote. I would love to know the karma level needed to up vote but that is not anywhere that I have looked (faq, guidelines, etc.).

>> It's just easier to dismiss you by the third paragraph and down vote.

> Nope. Guess not.

I wouldn't be so smug, what you said still might not be good, it just could be the best comment out of a really poor batch. :)

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#87

Post by kls »

ajuc wrote: post #68
tomkin wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that the correlation is weak, but the reluctance to actually do the studies is due to the implications of them. Atheists are, by nature, less violent. Not because they are somehow enlightened, but because there is at least one major grievance removed from the equation. Atheists don't tend to burn down other buildings because they are different, or ravage an entire community because they aren't secular. This…

> Atheists are, by nature, less violent. Not because they are somehow enlightened, but because there is at least one major grievance removed from the equation. Atheists don't tend to burn down other buildings because they are different, or ravage an entire community because they aren't secular. Replace atheists with "people that think independly", and I could agree. As it is I cannot. One counterexample - most of the…

Right, I am always skeptical of simple answers to problems when humans are involved. I like simplicity and elegance in solutions, but if there is one thing that I have realized in life is generally when humans become a variable in the equation, simplicity goes right out the window.

I really don't think simple solution like abolish religion are the answer when dealing with the complexities of human nature. I think a scientifically valid test for identifying psychopathy would do far more for ridding the world of inequality than abolishing religion and personally, I think even that would maybe fix 1% of the issues, the reality is it is layers and layers or personal, cultural and societal behaviors, cultures and norms that together build systems of inequality. Generally simple solutions like get rid of those guys are just schemes concocted by another psychopath trying to control one group against another. You can count me out of any solution that requires alienation or elimination of a group of people based on a common identity, because that only shift the equality onto another group and it opens up a dark, dark door.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#88

Post by kls »

tomkin wrote: post #79
paulhauggis wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Religion on our side of the world looks rosy. If you look away from the west, you will see how religion enslaves and dilutes entire populations into believing this is what god wants." I think religion is ingrained in humans. If all religions were gone today, people would would still be getting religious over something. Open source has turned religious in the development community. So has development languages (PHP/R…

> I think religion is ingrained in humans. If all religions were gone today, people would would still be getting religious over something. Diluting religion into a fan club of sorts is a way to get around why actual religion is bad. You can't find a path of brutality and enslavement to Ruby enthusiasts. It's not the same thing and I think that should be pretty obvious. > Many people have bastardized this and use it t…

You can't find a path of brutality and enslavement to Ruby enthusiasts. It's not the same thing and I think that should be pretty obvious.

I once watch a Vikings fan beat unconscious a Tampa Bay fans with a baseball bat and put him in the hospital after a game, the melee involved probably 30 men, I almost got hit just trying to defuse the situation so that someone did not die. Development is a little different given the composition of people that identify with it, but the same dogma can rear it's head. That being said, dogma and violence can crop up in any group given the right circumstances.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#89

Post by kls »

lambersley wrote: post #69
tomkin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe religion in general does aid in providing some sense of moral compass. Here's the problem I have with that. Let's say that I am a member of the SS and being a member provides me with a *moral compass*. OK, wait...those are the *wrong* morals. Right. The attack shouldn't be against people's belief or spirituality – but of the idea that you shouldn't borrow ideas without evaluation or due diligence. > Relig…

> I believe religion in general does aid in providing some sense of moral compass. Moral compass in its simplest form. 'Thou shall not murder' - I'm not sure there is an argument in terms of "right v wrong" > crucial in the abolishment Perhaps a Western view, but looking at the countries who lead the charge, they were strongly influenced by 'the church' > Sources Thank you. I only had a few minutes to quickly skim th…

Also the first two are nations that are culturally and ethnically pretty homogeneous which would partially explain why there is little strife. If everyone subscribes to the same belief system and are ethnically similar then they are more like one big group as opposed to what we have in other countries where there is tension between groups.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#90

Post by kls »

Yoms wrote: post #73
tomkin wrote: post #50

This problem, like many problems in the world are often examined only a few layers deep. The conclusions are always the same: Poverty/Slavery are the consequence of corruption, or an evil dictator of some kind. While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventua…

This report shows us a terribly broken culture. It may have had foundations in religion, but that was so long ago that even if we could magically wipe away all trace of religion or God from the minds of every Mauritanian, the problem would continue. The only way to fix broken cultural aspects is through education, which is what the abolitionists in this report seem to be doing. Maybe it shows my ignorance, but if not…

if we could magically wipe away all trace of religion or God from the minds of every Mauritanian, the problem would continue.

One only has to ask which came first the desire to control others or the religion that justified it, I believe the answer is self evident and if it is, then religions that control are merely a symptom of human nature and abolishing them will not cure the foundry cause which is the desire.

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