Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#81

Post by baz00 » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:25 PM UTC

I have to see some red flags here. The very nature and power of Excel comes from the fact that workbooks can stand alone. This means that the process is eternally tied to the cloud now. So when you, 3 years down the line, have to open a workbook from your deceased colleague, you are at the whim of the vendor supporting the existence of this integration.

Step one of any workload will always be "work out how to make the software work again" and that's terrible.

I know this because I have been in that situation several times in the last couple of decades with random Excel, outlook and word add-ins. And those don't even do the processing remotely!

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#82

Post by walthamstow » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:26 PM UTC

tigeroil wrote: post #37

brokencode wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because Excel runs in a web browser nowadays and they want to avoid creating a separate way of running Python locally for a locally installed copy of Excel. Maybe they will in the future, but it makes sense to start with the approach that will work in both web and local installs.

Looking at what they're doing with Outlook I'd bet money that they intend to replace the desktop version of Excel with the web version sooner or later.

I agree but expect that Excel will be the very last app of the suite that they make web-only. Excel heads like my wife absolutely hate the web version.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#83

Post by chad1n » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:26 PM UTC

While I can see the advantages of Python over VBA, I feel like running the code in the cloud instead of locally will be a big no from a lot of people, especially enterprises running offline Office installations.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#84

Post by Qem » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:27 PM UTC

Now that Microsoft embraced Python, what are the odds it will go all the way to extend and extinguish it (or at least CPython as reference implementation)? There are much more excel users than programmers. If excel runs Python, it has the potential to become the "de facto" standard interpreter, used by most people worldwide, displacing CPython.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#85

Post by cameronh90 » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:27 PM UTC

inglor wrote: post #49

cableshaft wrote: post #13

I wish it wasn't solely powered only by Microsoft Cloud and could support python running locally, but regardless I think this will still be huge and single-handedly modernizes Excel by a large margin. This alone could eliminate the need for websites that just want this sort of data. I can think of a past project at a previous job I did building an analytics website used only by a handful of people internally that cou…

Hi I work on Excel, can you write a summary of why that's important to you and send it to bgruenbaum@microsoft.com ? I'll get it in front of a PM. Alternatively PMs read all the feedback sent via the feedback UI on Excel web and desktop so you can use that instead if you prefer.

We use Excel for a bunch of "critical" tasks as defined by the financial regulator, which means any of their dependencies also have to be assessed to ensure they meet the required level of stability.

What this means is we'd need to go from just requiring a laptop and a copy of the spreadsheet to requiring redundant internet connections and validating Microsoft's backend meet the regulator's requirements. I'm pretty sure that would unfortunately rule out using it.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#86

Post by BeetleB » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:28 PM UTC

diffeomorphism wrote: post #24

Wait just a moment. Libreoffice had python for years, but nobody cared and instead complained about needing 100% compatible VBA for "real work". Where are those people now?

The problem with Libreoffice was that the python support was purely documented.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#87

Post by v7n » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

brokencode wrote: post #22

cardamomo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That caught my attention too! I'm curious why they would choose this model.

Probably because Excel runs in a web browser nowadays and they want to avoid creating a separate way of running Python locally for a locally installed copy of Excel. Maybe they will in the future, but it makes sense to start with the approach that will work in both web and local installs.

I'm positive they've at least toyed with the idea of running a Python interpreter in a WebAssembly module, which should work in both environments _and_ provide some isolation. The telemetry settings, I guess, wouldn't need to be changed to call home about performance/errors.

I can't attest to the performance of such technique for now, though, or guess why they could have deemed it not worth pursuing at the time being.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#88

Post by LispSporks22 » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #56

inglor wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi I work on Excel, can you write a summary of why that's important to you and send it to bgruenbaum@microsoft.com ? I'll get it in front of a PM. Alternatively PMs read all the feedback sent via the feedback UI on Excel web and desktop so you can use that instead if you prefer.

It won't work offline, for one. I use Office exclusively without internet as otherwise who knows what private stuff it's sending back to Microsoft, which then becomes eligible for warrantless surveillance by the federal police. I know it's old fashioned to want local software to only change things on my local file system, but if I didn't want that paradigm, I'd just use Google Docs.

I eventually gave up on it because of the locals vs cloud differences. The documentation for the whole thing was terrible as well. I think they’re in transition (assuming cloud only). In my case, I just went and used Calc from LibreOffice.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#89

Post by icapybara » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:30 PM UTC

curiousgal wrote: post #39

Meh, as an advanced user on a trading floor we don't need Python for Excel to run on the cloud, we need it to run locally so we can tap into our in-house C++ library and KDB databases. Third-party solutions have so much overhead.

Sounds like you're doing something too sophisticated for Excel.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#90

Post by Spivak » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:30 PM UTC

tigeroil wrote: post #37

brokencode wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because Excel runs in a web browser nowadays and they want to avoid creating a separate way of running Python locally for a locally installed copy of Excel. Maybe they will in the future, but it makes sense to start with the approach that will work in both web and local installs.

Looking at what they're doing with Outlook I'd bet money that they intend to replace the desktop version of Excel with the web version sooner or later.

That's got to be the death-knell for Excel. It might be better in every conceivable way but going web-only only makes Sheets look more attractive to the people doing the buying. And you can run JS in your Sheets right now.