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Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

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Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#81

Post by sdfghswe »

Eddygandr wrote: post #80
sdfghswe wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a weird take because the whole point of the last decade of leetcode was that people with special skills or that built something great can't even get hired. No, it looks like you're missing the point. Leetcode is not for people with special skills. It's for people with NO SKILLS other than "can code". Well if the only thing you can do is write code, you better be really good at writing code.

Didn't the guy who made Homebrew fail his interview at Google because he couldn't invert a binary tree? That's a guy who has built a popular product in the wild and can clearly code but failed because of the leetcode barrier at all IC levels.

You sound like you're trying to make a point. Make a point.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#82

Post by foldr »

KaiserPro wrote: post #30

The problem is that "leetcode" is a definitely a thing that exists in "FAANG" interviews. The biggest stumbling block with leetcode is that you shouldn't be programming like that in real life. "make a linked list" no, just use a library like everyone else. "Implement addition in python but with string inputs", "no you can't use the built in x" All of that "clever" shit should be filtered out at PR/MR/diff review time…

I think a fair number of Leetcode 'medium' problems are reasonable as augmented versions of FizzBuzz. In most cases, someone who can code should at least be able to write a brute force solution to one of these problems and explain why their brute force solution is slow. Where I think Leetcode-style questions become problematic is when they're used as test of whether someone can invent and implement a clever algorithm under time pressure. Unless you're hiring someone to do specifically that, then I think this style of Leetcode interviewing is of limited value.

Also, some Leetcode problems just have unnecessarily unfriendly descriptions. For example this one, which is quite simple to implement, but which has an unnecessarily obscure problem description: https://leetcode.com/problems/count-and-say/

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#83

Post by costanzaDynasty »

I stopped reading after intern.

I find LeetCode type sites good for warning up my brain in the morning. I start one or two every morning and it really good for batting practice. As a tool for hiring, Im not so sure.

The same industry that will tell you how discriminatory standardize testing is, will also force you through a gauntlet of tests.

Do as I say, not as I do tech.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#84

Post by KaiserPro »

gumby wrote: post #75
KaiserPro wrote: post #30

The problem is that "leetcode" is a definitely a thing that exists in "FAANG" interviews. The biggest stumbling block with leetcode is that you shouldn't be programming like that in real life. "make a linked list" no, just use a library like everyone else. "Implement addition in python but with string inputs", "no you can't use the built in x" All of that "clever" shit should be filtered out at PR/MR/diff review time…

I'm not going to defend "leetcode grinding" and its pathologies but TBF this is problematic: > "make a linked list" no, just use a library like everyone else. > "Implement addition in python but with string inputs", "no you can't use the built in x" All of that "clever" shit should be filtered out at PR/MR/diff review time. Sure, those statements (just use an existing library) are what you'll do in practice especiall…

> Sure, those statements (just use an existing library) are what you'll do in practice especially as a beginner

The more code you write, the more you have to maintain. Sure, of course there are times where you need to re-implement something from scratch. But those times are rare (or should be). Making something from scratch without strong justification is a strong signal, just not a positive one.

Now, as you point out, "when would you write x from scratch" is a great question to ask someone. I am vary wary of people that are willing to overspend innovation tokens. But thats a design/systems/culture question, not a coding question.

the signal I want from a coding test is the following:

o Can they demonstrate and understanding of the programming language?

o Do they create readable code?

o Do they ask questions?

o Do they follow the style of the programme they are modifying?

o Do they say "I don't know"?

o Do they push back on weird or silly requirements?

all of those things make working with someone much easier. None of those questions require "implement algorithm that only exist in Computer Science courses". They can all be answered by something like:

"here is a program that fetches a json document, but it breaks often, please make it more reliable"

That is far more realistic, and more likely to what they'll be doing.

The dirty little secret about most coding jobs is that actually, the important thing is getting something functional and stable for the business, so it can make money. Then after that its responding to feature/bug requests. As a programmer, your job is to convert business logic into computer logic. 99% of the time, this doesn't mean making artisan libraries that improve some tiny metric by 20x.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#87

Post by gumby »

KaiserPro wrote: post #84
gumby wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to defend "leetcode grinding" and its pathologies but TBF this is problematic: > "make a linked list" no, just use a library like everyone else. > "Implement addition in python but with string inputs", "no you can't use the built in x" All of that "clever" shit should be filtered out at PR/MR/diff review time. Sure, those statements (just use an existing library) are what you'll do in practice especiall…

> Sure, those statements (just use an existing library) are what you'll do in practice especially as a beginner The more code you write, the more you have to maintain. Sure, of course there are times where you need to re-implement something from scratch. But those times are rare (or should be). Making something from scratch without strong justification is a strong signal, just not a positive one. Now, as you point ou…

> o Do they ask questions?

I find I get 90% of the insight from simple questions like "write a function to shuffle a deck of cards. Don't worry about simple typos like forgetting a semicolon."

You learn a lot from how they set things up (make a suit class, and a vector of card classes? Or just use the integers 1-52?) and talking about that. Do they think about the problem (and, as you say, ask a couple of "requirement" questions) before diving in?

One of the best hires I remember was someone who got this problem wrong (went to a lot of work to leave the deck unshuffled). We gently asked if it did what was required. Hi smacked himself on the forehead and said, "I'm a fucking idiot" (in front of us in his interview!) and quickly corrected the bug. Great guy.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#88

Post by devoutsalsa »

Eddygandr wrote: post #80
sdfghswe wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a weird take because the whole point of the last decade of leetcode was that people with special skills or that built something great can't even get hired. No, it looks like you're missing the point. Leetcode is not for people with special skills. It's for people with NO SKILLS other than "can code". Well if the only thing you can do is write code, you better be really good at writing code.

Didn't the guy who made Homebrew fail his interview at Google because he couldn't invert a binary tree? That's a guy who has built a popular product in the wild and can clearly code but failed because of the leetcode barrier at all IC levels.

If you can’t invert a binary tree, how can I trust you to change my website’s favicon?!

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#89

Post by jebarker »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #54
KaiserPro wrote: post #30

The problem is that "leetcode" is a definitely a thing that exists in "FAANG" interviews. The biggest stumbling block with leetcode is that you shouldn't be programming like that in real life. "make a linked list" no, just use a library like everyone else. "Implement addition in python but with string inputs", "no you can't use the built in x" All of that "clever" shit should be filtered out at PR/MR/diff review time…

The problem is though how do you evaluate for real work without a portfolio of experience? Real work projects take weeks - perhaps months - to design, build, review and release. How do you test for that, really? I agree leetcode style interviews are artificial, but I think they persist because few people have identified and popularised effective alternatives. At least with leetcode you've shown people in front of you…

This seems like a better way to evaluate real-world coding skills. Did you use it in a standard 45-60 min interview or as a take home problem? It seems like it'd take a decent amount of time to read the requirements and just introduce the task.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#90

Post by devoutsalsa »

gumby wrote: post #87
KaiserPro wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, those statements (just use an existing library) are what you'll do in practice especially as a beginner The more code you write, the more you have to maintain. Sure, of course there are times where you need to re-implement something from scratch. But those times are rare (or should be). Making something from scratch without strong justification is a strong signal, just not a positive one. Now, as you point ou…

> o Do they ask questions? I find I get 90% of the insight from simple questions like "write a function to shuffle a deck of cards. Don't worry about simple typos like forgetting a semicolon." You learn a lot from how they set things up (make a suit class, and a vector of card classes? Or just use the integers 1-52?) and talking about that. Do they think about the problem (and, as you say, ask a couple of "requiremen…

If you ask me a question that boils down to “write a card shuffling algorithm”, I’m going to do less well because I’m being taxed by the thought of “Why is this person asking me to shuffle a deck of virtual cards?” During the interview, I’d probably just google “best algorithm for shuffling deck of cards in ”, and I’d tell you I was looking it up. If you tasked me with shuffling cards on the job, that’s what I’d do.
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