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Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#81

Post by freerobby »

mrguyorama wrote: post #67
mensetmanusman wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s on the regulators to define a metric, lest EVs compete on made up numbers. EVs are so new of course that organizations are still figuring this out globally.

But Tesla is using that metric in a place most normally don't, and they are doing that purposely as elsewhere they use an in house estimation like everyone else. No gasoline car uses the EPA fuel economy to do it's range estimation, EVEN WHEN IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR THEM TO DO SO, because it's wrong enough often enough to make a range estimation using it lose significant value. Tesla has made a choice to stray from no…

I think the suit is just referencing the rated range meter. The trip planner (which is what predicts how much battery you need to get to your destination) uses real world conditions, not rated range.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#82

Post by yreg »

TheRealSteel wrote: post #55
yreg wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full 100% charge is good for the LFP batteries which have been standard in Model 3 and Model Y since 2021. Indeed, Tesla recommends to charge to 100% at least once per week. https://insideevs.com/news/557527/tesla-model3-lfp-charging-... edit: read response below

As far as I know this isn't true, LFP batteries degrade more when charged to 100% than if they're charged to less, but the remaining charge can't be estimated accurately unless you do: https://www.torquenews.com/15475/battery-charging-behavior-t... https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModel3/comments/yh5ts5/m3_lfp_... (They still degrade much less than the other kind of battery Tesla uses, however).

Interesting, it seems they want people to charge to 100% so they can precisely estimate the state of charge on the road. Still, as you say it doesn't seem LFPs get degraded that much when sitting at full charge.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/the-puzzling-reason-why-t...

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#83

Post by [deleted] »

Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#84

Post by jtbayly »

Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

My memory from the first article I saw on this is that Tesla convinced the EPA to not use the EPA's measurement, and instead to trust Tesla's "measurement."

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#85

Post by kjksf »

MBCook wrote: post #28
Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

Clearly Tesla knew the EPA range isn’t what customers commonly got in the real world. They’re famous for all their telematics. If an example car can achieve 700 miles on the EPA test, but normal usage averages 150, is it fraud to advertise 700? To show 700 on the screen at full charge? I agree it’s an interesting question. If the difference was 5% I’m not sure people would care. But at 25% off I think it is a very a…

When you look at web page of Tesla (or any other EV manufacturer), when they describe the range it's always "est. EPA range".

This is 100% truth. It is an estimated EPA range.

What's more it's often actually measured by an EPA. The Reuters article that spurred this lawsuit said that EPA, not Tesla, tested 6 Tesla cars since 2020. That's at least half of them (Tesla has only 3 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 10 different models on sale in U.S. although they have to re-certify if they change the battery).

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#86

Post by brigade »

bdamm wrote: post #51
rubyn00bie wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This take is a bit weird to me. It’s like saying because other companies aren’t lying that Tesla should be excused from lying. It sounds like Tesla has been displaying this number in car regardless of the accuracy; and in my opinion leaned into lying. From the article: > The complaint cited testing that found three Tesla models fell short of their advertised ranges by an average of 26 percent. In addition to alleging…

Right, and the one that is accurate is what you get when you put in a destination. The car can't tell you how far you can go if it doesn't know where you are going, because of all these factors (altitude gain, direction of wind, speed limits on the various roads involved, etc) which have a very significant effect on the range. The idea of a single value for "range" is fundamentally flawed. Is it Tesla's fault that pe…

Gas cars have had destination-less range estimates for decades, and as far as I know have never based it off of EPA fuel economy. Instead, they use the car’s own recent fuel economy.

Which concept more useful for drivers, the concept of remaining range if you keep driving the way you’ve been driving, or “how many miles the car can get in the EPA test cycle”?

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#87

Post by [deleted] »

yurishimo wrote: post #56
CameronNemo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not willing to pay the premium, though. Tell me when highways, bridges, and streets are not paid by gas taxes -- you won't. Tell me when I can trade money for reliably sequestered CO2 -- you can't. edit: I didn't downvote them btw

So you downvote me because you are refusing to engage in the “we live in a society” meme? We’ve decided collectively how to fund infrastructure and engage in climate action as a society. If you don’t like it, feel free to lobby your neighbors and representatives to change the law.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#88

Post by mrguyorama »

redserk wrote: post #30
dragontamer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tesla-exaggerate... Hypothetical Porsche didn't setup customer service teams to lie to customers on a mass-scale when the complaints came in though. We have evidence of Tesla service-cancellation teams. We have evidence of Tesla's software purposefully being inaccurate when above 50% charge, and then slowly becoming more accurate when reaching 50% or less charge. This is li…

I've worked tech support at a couple of different organizations early in my career. It does not seem at all unusual to create a team dedicated to a particular class of issue so other support staff can focus on a broader range of issues.

This is an issue that tesla created on purpose though. These people are confused that their car is not going as far as THE RANGE DISPLAY shows they will go. Hundreds of millions of cars have been made over the past twenty years with range displays that you can trust to hit zero BEFORE you run out of gas, due to estimating with recent driving data, and probably a gentle bump down of the number to make sure drivers have a safety net when they are stupid.

Has there ever been a single one of these systems overestimating by tens of miles consistently and for nearly every individual?

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#89

Post by mrguyorama »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #45
darth_avocado wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s a disingenuous to use this argument. Even if you drive at 25mph on a flat road on a day with moderate temperatures and no wind, Tesla’s range drops quite a lot more than a mile for every mile driven. Like yeah, if you’re using air conditioning and driving at 70 mph, it makes sense your range will drop more. The problem is that they’re pretending under ideal conditions, you can achieve that max range, but…

In my experience, a Tesla driven at 30km/h will exceed its EPA range by about 20%.

data from 3300 drivers from the very article we are discussing disagrees with your single anecdote.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#90

Post by constantcrying »

dragontamer wrote: post #61
constantcrying wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Of course he was ordered to build it that way Zero evidence for that.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-ba... > The directive to present the optimistic range estimates came from Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk, this person said. > “Elon wanted to show good range numbers when fully charged,” the person said, adding: “When you buy a car off the lot seeing 350-mile, 400-mile range, it makes you feel good.” ------- This is evidence, is it not?

Certainly not for anything illegal.

If you believe Musk on this the lawsuit is practically pointless. Having an optimistic algorithm is not illegal and even alledging that it somehow is seems absurd.

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