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At this company, we are family

pboyd.io

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Re: At this company, we are family

#81

Post by code_runner »

dkarl wrote: post #57
FredPret wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

Do you really mean that threatening to claw back severance from critics of the company is a significant part of what makes the U.S. job market work?

no, the comment you're replying was not being so narrow

Re: At this company, we are family

#82

Post by epups »

charliea0 wrote: post #68
playing_colours wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany we have probation period of 6 months that helps both sides to decide if they want to continue employment. Can you please explain the causation between easiness of firing / hiring and high salaries?

If you hire someone for 100k per year and it turns out they only contribute 50k per year, then you lose a minimum of 25k over those six months. As a business you're more risk-averse in offering high salaries since it costs more when you make a mistake.

You can actually fire people with only two weeks notice during the first 6 months. I think the risk really is that nay inherent flaws in a highly paid employee are not detected early, and to fire them later is indeed very costly and complicated.

Re: At this company, we are family

#83

Post by dsr_ »

hirako2000 wrote: post #60
playing_colours wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany we have probation period of 6 months that helps both sides to decide if they want to continue employment. Can you please explain the causation between easiness of firing / hiring and high salaries?

What I understood is that it's pretty easy to fire someone in the US without cause. Pretty impossible in most countries in Europe.

Correct, although there is a legal conundrum. If you fire someone without cause, they can claim that you actually did have a cause, and it's one of the illegal causes. So, it's safer to compile evidence and fire someone for any legal cause -- of which "did not meet company needs" is generally safest.

Even safer is offering them a departure settlement of money and/or insurance coverage, in exchange for which they won't sue you.

Re: At this company, we are family

#84

Post by sneeze-slayer »

SaintGhurka wrote: post #62
anon291 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You should fight for some more rights, sometime What is the purpose of these 'rights'? As a software engineer in America, who's been laid off many times, I get (1) unemployment, (2) 100% free medical (few SW engineers apply, but most who are laid off would be eligible, if they cared),(3) a free vacation for however long as I want, (4) lots of savings because I make so much more than my European counterparts, and (5…

>> (2) 100% free medical (few SW engineers apply, but most who are laid off would be eligible, if they cared) Could you explain this one? Do you mean via medicaid?

Good call. I assumed COBRA, which is not free but the company will sometimes cover the premia for laid-off employees.

Re: At this company, we are family

#85

Post by mgaunard »

jraby3 wrote: post #40
FredPret wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

I’m not convinced Americans pay less in taxes. When you include state taxes, social security from the employee and employer, then it starts to look like much less of a difference. When you include health insurance and college education, Americans get much less value. I do agree with the first half of your comment. American labor laws make it easier to fire which allows employers to take more risk in hiring.

If you live in the UK, income tax is 45%, and you still cannot rely on either of public education or public healthcare, at least if you want something of good quality.

Re: At this company, we are family

#86

Post by dudul »

jylam wrote: post #16

I especially like the very American "I ask that you refrain from discussing your termination with any social contacts made through your membership in the family [...] Failure to comply may result in your severance being terminated early or withheld entirely." In (most of ?) Europe, this severance is law and not debatable (as discovered by Musk recently), so this sentence would be outright illegal. You can talk about…

You should fight for higher salaries sometime (sic) Additionally, a company putting this language in their termination agreement doesn't make it legal.

Re: At this company, we are family

#87

Post by anon291 »

aix1 wrote: post #46
anon291 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You should fight for some more rights, sometime What is the purpose of these 'rights'? As a software engineer in America, who's been laid off many times, I get (1) unemployment, (2) 100% free medical (few SW engineers apply, but most who are laid off would be eligible, if they cared),(3) a free vacation for however long as I want, (4) lots of savings because I make so much more than my European counterparts, and (5…

> been laid off many times How does one end up being laid off many times? Have you had a long career or do you specifically seek out high-risk high-reward jobs? Or just the roll of the dice?

High-risk high-reward. Lots of startups. Some succeed. Some go under.

Re: At this company, we are family

#88

Post by angarg12 »

FredPret wrote: post #21
jylam wrote: post #16

I especially like the very American "I ask that you refrain from discussing your termination with any social contacts made through your membership in the family [...] Failure to comply may result in your severance being terminated early or withheld entirely." In (most of ?) Europe, this severance is law and not debatable (as discovered by Musk recently), so this sentence would be outright illegal. You can talk about…

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

I moved from the UK to the US recently and I'm not sure it's worth my while.

Sure, I make more than 2x the salary, but the cost of living of a bit tech hub chips away most of it. Specially housing, which has increased dramatically since Covid. Even with my big fat tech salary, getting in the properly ladder seems to be years away.

Pay less taxes? sure, but then you have to pay for everything and then some, and everything is incredibly expensive. And we don't even have children yet. I can't imagine being able to afford childcare even with my current income.

I agree that I choose the worst time to move over. In the last year we experienced drop in stock prices combined with soaring inflation, which means that both my income went down, and my expenses went up. Also it's not like I can change employers and get a better deal. Even if the job market wasn't depressed, my visa (L1) doesn't allow me to change employers. Also the latest visa bulletin pushed the current date of my visa category back a couple of years, so Green Card seems like a somewhat distant dream.

All in, I'm not sure my quality of life in this country is better (and the UK itself is not doing great lately).

Re: At this company, we are family

#90

Post by cperciva »

jylam wrote: post #16

I especially like the very American "I ask that you refrain from discussing your termination with any social contacts made through your membership in the family [...] Failure to comply may result in your severance being terminated early or withheld entirely." In (most of ?) Europe, this severance is law and not debatable (as discovered by Musk recently), so this sentence would be outright illegal. You can talk about…

If "social contacts made through your membership in the family" are covered by non-disclosure/non-solicitation, conceivably an ex-employee could be liable for damages?

I agree that "withholding pay" is not the answer here, but if it went to court it might net out in the end.

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