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GoFlow: a DIY tDCS brain-boosting kit

extremetech.com

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Re: GoFlow: a DIY tDCS brain-boosting kit

#81

Post by dinkumthinkum »

adammichaelc wrote: post #79
dinkumthinkum wrote: post #78

At the risk of being downvoted, after the reading all the comments here, disappointingly, it appears P.T. Barnum's often quoted remark (yes I'm aware he may not have said it, irrelevant) about suckers and being born every minute, is especially applicable to HNers. Maybe it's some kind of "too smart for their own good" kind of phenomenon (getting into this business of current regulators and all this jibber jabber); bu…

AFAIK 70-80 human studies have been done on tDCS, most of them placebo-controlled. Here's a review on the topic from Nature: http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110413/full/472156a.html

So, the link you gave me is nice and it says this: "Overall, though, the optimism among tDCS's believers remains high." I'm sure it is but my point remains regardless of the votes. This research is very sparse and the benefits are not quite that clear and the possibility that these fairly unclear benefits could be the result of some kind of mental priming or other the should leave suspicion intact.

Given the kind of claims being made, don't we need more than this?

OK. Fine. Wonderous possibilities - transhumanism and all that.

This is hardly a "proven" scientific thing and the benefits are somewhat murky. What I'm seeing on HN, surprisingly, are people talking about buying some contraption that purports to make them smarter and the CONSENSUS seems to be that that is entirely reasonable. Disturbing.

More disturbing I'm seeing comments about people experimenting on themselves with crudely crafted contraptions and hurting themselves and others simply offering advice about voltage regulators and the like. This is clearly a "sucker born every minute" territory." I'm really surprised to see this on HN.

I get the impression that I could post about some kind of startup in which I am going to disrupt biotech by curing cancer with some kind of Wi-Fi therapy and probably what I would get as a response is hints on how to optimize the timing protocols, reduce latency, and so forth.

Re: GoFlow: a DIY tDCS brain-boosting kit

#82

Post by mattais »

shabble wrote: post #43
mattais wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Once the device has been tested to our satisfaction, a full schematic and parts list will be published for the solder junkies out there. Free of charge. The $99 kit is a solderless, and no tools necessary setup. - Matt @flowstateengage

I would assume (hope?) that you've tried it yourself? If/how did it work for you?

It's been fun. Had a small issue with reversing the electrodes during a pitch... kinda put me too sleep. Some people thought I was stoned.

But in general it has been really useful in learning coffee script and teaching my friend how to longboard.

Re: GoFlow: a DIY tDCS brain-boosting kit

#83

Post by DanBC »

djtriptych wrote: post #54

Another ethical wrinkle: Given that we have good evidence that this technology is safe and remarkably effective, is it ethical to NOT deploy this technology on those government executives on whose decision-making and information-processing ability American lives depend?

we don't yet have good evidence of neither safety nor efficacy.

Re: GoFlow: a DIY tDCS brain-boosting kit

#84

Post by DanBC »

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #81
adammichaelc wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK 70-80 human studies have been done on tDCS, most of them placebo-controlled. Here's a review on the topic from Nature: http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110413/full/472156a.html

So, the link you gave me is nice and it says this: "Overall, though, the optimism among tDCS's believers remains high." I'm sure it is but my point remains regardless of the votes. This research is very sparse and the benefits are not quite that clear and the possibility that these fairly unclear benefits could be the result of some kind of mental priming or other the should leave suspicion intact. Given the kind of…

You still haven't read the studies. Your point would be much more powerful if you linked to a study and showed where they had gone wrong. (That's not hard; they typically use very small sample sizes. It's hard to randomise the groups. How was the blinding done? How are the effects measured? What are the confidence ranges on the results.)

But you should note that these are not quack journals and disreputable colleges - these are real journals and real researchers. Note that most of the reports are fair - "might be effective" and "deserves further investigation" tend not to be the language used by quacks.

Maybe I've misunderstood your point?

Re: GoFlow: a DIY tDCS brain-boosting kit

#85

Post by phaker »

gwern wrote: post #77
phaker wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A MRI machine is probably not included in the $99 kit. :) I was skeptical that simple, unguided tDCS could have significant effects so I searched some more and found a very nice overview paper: http://www.aipass.org/files/TDCS_State%20of%20the%20art.pdf "Transcranial direct current stimulation: State of the art 2008"

That overview seemed to be more about what exact methodology future studies should use. The Nature article had more of an overview than that.

The article I linked references lots of research that had shown measurable results, including research on stimulation of large brain areas, which is all that you'd be able to do with this $99 kit.

I was looking for something, anything, that would tell me if there's significant research in the area and if simple procedures that could be carried out using this kit would work.

(Also you might note that the Nature article was linked 9 hours after my post :) In some ways it does give a better overview of the technique, I'd link it if I had found it.)

Re: GoFlow: a DIY tDCS brain-boosting kit

#86

Post by mattais »

mbijon wrote: post #73

Why isn't this a Kickstarter project yet? Forget about sign-ups, this is well enough organized to attract pre-purchases (plus I want one sooner).

Thanks for the love. The kickstarter should be starting soon. Also a full schematic will be posted around the same time if anyone wants to order the parts themselves.

Re: GoFlow: a DIY tDCS brain-boosting kit

#87

Post by cheatercheater »

godfreykfc wrote: post #40
mistercow wrote: post #14

> It’s not hard to see how tDCS could pose some ethical considerations, though. Only if you're primed by your culture to blanch at transhumanism. > What if some students can afford tDCS kits, but others can’t? What if some students can afford college, computers, calculators, tutoring, study guides, etc. but others can't? This is one of the silliest purported ethical issues I've ever seen, but it consistently gets con…

What if this allows you to run faster. Should we allow this in Olympics? (I haven't made up my mind yet, but leaning towards a no.)

They put sprinters in vats of water and ice cubes after running to freeze their muscle so that they perform better, and they put thermometers deep in their butts to check for the exact point until which they can be frozen before they get hypothermia. I think if that's allowed then zapping yourself with 9V is definitely in.

Re: GoFlow: a DIY tDCS brain-boosting kit

#88

Post by cheatercheater »

georgieporgie wrote: post #62
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the common programmer complaint of being on call/working very long hours, I think your conclusion is rather naive. Everyone doing it will just result in it being the expected behavior to get more work out of 8+ hours on the job.

Several issues: 1) How do we quantify the number of programmers subjected to these conditions? Squeaky wheels get noticed. Personally, I've had only a few stretches where I was expected to work more than around 40 hours per week. I've also had several stretches where I only worked less. 2) How do we compare what is still a very young field (computer programming) to other fields? How do we compare knowledge work with…

Being the lazy type I ask that you answer those yourself and report back.

Re: GoFlow: a DIY tDCS brain-boosting kit

#89

Post by cheatercheater »

mattais wrote: post #27
raarky wrote: post #3

Would be interesting to try this about 5 years after the first batch of users lead the charge. If it has any effect then the side effects would be my first major concern.

The tech is over 40 years old actually. Tons of research out there if you've got some free time.

Can you show some examples of implementation that are 40 years old?

Re: GoFlow: a DIY tDCS brain-boosting kit

#90

Post by mistercow »

DanBC wrote: post #83
djtriptych wrote: post #54

Another ethical wrinkle: Given that we have good evidence that this technology is safe and remarkably effective, is it ethical to NOT deploy this technology on those government executives on whose decision-making and information-processing ability American lives depend?

we don't yet have good evidence of neither safety nor efficacy.

You should do some research before claiming that there isn't evidence for something. If you look at the wikipedia article on tDCS, you'll find a number of peer-reviewed citations regarding its safety and efficacy.
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