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Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

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Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#81

I’m seeing a lot of comments that seem to point to first line management as the problem here. In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. That rolls down to Product Managers that can’t prioritize features and don’t really understand what they’re building or why. Ultimately this leads to engineers and members of the team worki…

“ The blame there lies solely in upper level leadership ” Not what I saw. Leadership was shockingly hard working. I have never seen a person who works harder than Calder at GOOG. Urs never stopped as well. Lower level VPs were always “on” as well. But VPs can’t do everything, they can’t peer into everyday lives of the lower levels, the orgs are too big. I think you want something superhuman from them. The problem in…

Working hard doesn’t necessarily mean working on the right things.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#82

I’m seeing a lot of comments that seem to point to first line management as the problem here. In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. That rolls down to Product Managers that can’t prioritize features and don’t really understand what they’re building or why. Ultimately this leads to engineers and members of the team worki…

> In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product.

Since an acquisition at a company I used to work for full-time and remained on call as a contractor with for some time after, I have seen this happen in a very impressive way.

Critical tech debt has gone unpaid as site performance degrades to the point of outages, but the new staff don't seem to know how to do anything except throw more hardware at the problem.

Meanwhile, a few weeks ago, I got an inquiry from them about "administrator passwords" for a list of a dozen or so programs in use on their developer machines, including 7-zip and Notepad++.

There were around a dozen items and all of them but some IDEs were completely open-source software. All of them were only deployed and run locally, with no administrative passwords or commercial licensing purchased. This inquiry came many months after I had left, including an extensive and agonizing knowledge transfer process.

There's no way the person asking me was such an idiot that he didn't realize that Notepad++ has no administrative passwords. But he asked me anyway. I can only assume this is because some wrathful idiot asked him to do this, and he knew that performing the ceremony of asking me as he was directed to do would be easier to deal with than just answering the inquiry directly with the parts he knew himself.

Once you have somebody generating fake work like that at the top, where can things possibly go other than down?

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#84

I’m seeing a lot of comments that seem to point to first line management as the problem here. In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. That rolls down to Product Managers that can’t prioritize features and don’t really understand what they’re building or why. Ultimately this leads to engineers and members of the team worki…

I think there's also an issue that execs can create the appearance of being busy (and may indeed spend a ridiculous number of hours in meetings) but it can be hard to see if they're contributing anything valuable. I was at a startup which over a period of years repeatedly had new execs come in, claim that something was wrong with our planning or goal-setting process, "restart" the whole thing in a way which was virtually identical except with new exemplar docs, tracking spreadsheets, meetings etc -- and then pat themselves on the back. So far as I can tell, this is only because creating the appearance of change allows them to take credit for any later success. I asked one once what they found problematic about our prior process, and the answer was roughly "I don't know about your prior process so I cannot comment."

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#86

The older I get the more appalled I am at what managers are bringing to the table versus senior engineers.

As a senior engineer I don't really agree. I've had good and bad managers over time, and the presence of good managers has been key when I've had more success and satisfaction.

For me, the good ones help me do the work that I am usually bad at or don't want to do: the nitty gritty of task prioritization, keeping track of the a bunch of the higher level details, parsing leadership's emanation for product direction, etc. That, and acting like a shield to deflect any badness that might come down from above.

I like contributing opinions and so on to all that, but I don't want to be the person attending all those meetings and being the final arbiter -- at least not right now. So I'm very happy to have someone there doing that, so I can operate more at the technical level.

I guess I'm a bit ADHD, but a lot of what managers do doesn't motivate me, sorry. So, yes, please to having someone fill those shoes. If they're good.

But a bad manager, yes... a problem. Luckily it's a competitive job market, and my skills such as they are can be used elsewhere, with better management.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#87

I’m seeing a lot of comments that seem to point to first line management as the problem here. In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. That rolls down to Product Managers that can’t prioritize features and don’t really understand what they’re building or why. Ultimately this leads to engineers and members of the team worki…

> Gut from the top if you want to get rid of the problem. It’s not the L5 engineer or the first line manager that’s holding any product back. I tend to agree but there's a real danger in leaving engineers to their own devices. I know this will be downvoted, but software engineers are the worst at planning their own work. The vast majority will just go off and do wtf ever they want. There really has to be guard rails…

> "I tend to agree but there's a real danger in leaving engineers to their own devices."

Agree with this concern but that's a false dichotomy no? "Upper management is bad" isn't necessarily proposing that engineers be left to their own devices, it's to cycle out upper management with more competent replacements.

I tend to agree with your overall point: companies where the culture encourages individual front-line teams to self-organize and ship independently tend to end up with incoherent products (see: Google). There's a lot of product velocity but almost none of it matters. You have teams shipping features because they feel like it and personally like the features, not because they offer some business value or strategic advantage.

You really, really need high-competence upper management to wrangle this energy into something coherent.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#89
post #84

I’m seeing a lot of comments that seem to point to first line management as the problem here. In my own anecdotal experience, I’ve seen a lot more “fake work” come from listless leadership that lacks a true vision for the product. That rolls down to Product Managers that can’t prioritize features and don’t really understand what they’re building or why. Ultimately this leads to engineers and members of the team worki…

I think there's also an issue that execs can create the appearance of being busy (and may indeed spend a ridiculous number of hours in meetings) but it can be hard to see if they're contributing anything valuable. I was at a startup which over a period of years repeatedly had new execs come in, claim that something was wrong with our planning or goal-setting process, "restart" the whole thing in a way which was virtu…

"It can be hard to see if they're contributing anything valuable"

Indeed. It's easier to evaluate "the appearance of change" than actual value or improvement.

When I consider this problem, my current belief is that only long-term discipline from senior leadership can change this system.

Re: Debate over 'fake work' and 'lazy management' in tech industry

#90
post #19

Maybe I'm missing a core piece from this article, but it leaves out quite a bit of agency from the employee. I never understand pieces like this that rail against employers, but also seem to cast the employees in such a helpless light. If you're stuck in a situation where you're not getting great feedback on what to work on, that seems like a great time to just build things and experiment on your own. Do it within th…

That doesn't always (or usually) work in some of these BigCorps. It's not that they don't give you freedom to go ... do stuff -- they often do -- but there are also are often very concrete boundaries about who is allowed to actually have the stuff they do go into any kind of production codebase. And very rigorous review processes, etc. and often the first question in a code review on something exotic and new at a place like Google is: Where is the PRD / design doc for this? (aka who approved this)..

They are often not environments promoting spontaneous contributions, especially not not at the L3/L4/L5 aka lower part of the promotion ladder.

That and corporate survival / promo at these places really depends on "demonstrating impact", which, well, at the lower levels... can come down to sticking with doing what someone more senior than you expected you to do, taking ownership of it, and etc etc.

The reality is that many of the people spinning their wheels like this should just leave and go find a new job. But that's awfully hard to do when you are making sometimes twice as much as what a more "meaningful" job in e.g. a startup or small company can offer. Or when you're on an H1B, or you need certain medical care, etc. etc. etc.

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