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The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

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Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#81

This is a reducto ad absurdum example of how the US government is paying out the nose to keep a bunch of manufacturing and development work on-shore in the USA. Yeah, sure, it's a trash can, there's no reason it should cost $50k. We're all agreed that's an absurd amount to pay for a trash container. The government isn't just paying for the trash can. They're paying for people to design, tool, and maintain that design…

The article goes on in the next paragraph to say that they were being charged $300 for the same trash cans only a few years ago.

Presumably all the sunk costs were already sunk

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#82
If you haven't worked in the government it can be hard to appreciate how many rules there are around procurement and how complex and sometimes crazy they are. At one project I worked on we used Red Hat enterprise Linux because the rules prohibited "freeware" and Red Hat was nice enough to charge us money for the CDs the operating system came on. It was going on a classified machine so taking advantage of the features that differentiated it from the free Fedora version was out of the question but rules are rules. But generally the rules that applied to me working at an FFRDC were much less burdensome than some of those my friends who have worked at defense contractors have had to deal with.

All of which is to say that while it's absurd for a trash can to have a price of $50,000, we can't be sure that this doesn't actually reflect changes in the actual cost structure of providing it. The rules are different for providing commercial off the shelf (COTS) goods versus specially procured goods. There are a lot of rules and regulations that would apply to the later but not the former. What if the old version was made in Mexico, for instance? Then you might have to go to a US company and get them to analyze the old version to figure out what composition the plastic is, create new molds to the exact specifications as the old shape, and have your new parts certified as identical to the old parts while being produced 100% in the US by US people.

Which isn't to say that defense or other contractors can't be huge sleazeballs who try to gouge the government sometimes. And sometimes this is outright corruption like the time that one guy in the DoD who was leaving for a job at LabView soon said another group where I worked was going to have to redo our work in LabView and we should get in bed with a corporation too. But this was on a recorded meeting so we were able to get that decision reversed. But often the way it works is that defense contractors working on cost-plus contracts do their best to interpret regulations in such a way as to maximize their costs so that they maximize their profits.

Preventing outright corruption like with the LabView guy is really important but the complicated rules we write to try to prevent that sometimes end up producing requirements documents that let a defense contractor claim with a straight face that the $47,000 they spent producing the trash was all legally mandated expenses and then they get to sell it to the government for $52,000 and pocket the standard 10% of the $5,000 difference.

I don't have a good solution for how to fix this in defense specifically, but Alon Levy's work on why transit costs are ten times larger in the US than in Spain or Italy seems like a good starting point. Or I'm currently reading ReCoding America which promises to give some insight on government software porcurement.

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#83

This is a reducto ad absurdum example of how the US government is paying out the nose to keep a bunch of manufacturing and development work on-shore in the USA. Yeah, sure, it's a trash can, there's no reason it should cost $50k. We're all agreed that's an absurd amount to pay for a trash container. The government isn't just paying for the trash can. They're paying for people to design, tool, and maintain that design…

Stuff for old models, like the E-3, is even more expensive. Obsolescence, tooling no longer available... A similar sotuation happens with spares for classic cars. Try getting rubber and plastic parts some old car models, same story: Lost tooling, low demand. For aircraft you have to recertify production and parts. All of that is actually quite expensive. Edit: Since the article mentions circuits and such: The alterna…

Often you can't get the original part, so you have to hire someone to take standard rubber and mold it into what you need, which can be more or less expensive depending on the use.

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they don't... they are playing the devil's advocate I think or being sarcastic. This is just plain corruption and fraud but it's legal because defense sector...

How about you ask me what I think instead of telling me what I think. Because what I think is not what you claim.

I was being sarcastic, I thought it was obvious. I'm not sarcastic on the fact that it is plain corruption though, it is.

You defending corruption and fraud is just so far fetched it's hard to take your OP seriously.

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#85
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd welcome your contrary explanation if you have one handy.

Corruption?

If you analyze how much the product and all associated processes can actually cost and then find a discrepancy (or find some pointless regulation that drives up the cost so much and explain how it was designed for profit and not purpose) then you can claim corruption. But simply saying "if prices look high to me it must mean corruption" is very naive.

If US gov bought cheap plastic stuff from another country instead there can well still be corruption expressed in their choice of suppliers etc.

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#86
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stuff for old models, like the E-3, is even more expensive. Obsolescence, tooling no longer available... A similar sotuation happens with spares for classic cars. Try getting rubber and plastic parts some old car models, same story: Lost tooling, low demand. For aircraft you have to recertify production and parts. All of that is actually quite expensive. Edit: Since the article mentions circuits and such: The alterna…

Often you can't get the original part, so you have to hire someone to take standard rubber and mold it into what you need, which can be more or less expensive depending on the use.

And now imagine that the person doing that work has to be certified according to aerospace standards... And believe me, that happens all the time...

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#87
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A trash can needs to be tested and certified for use in the Pentagon? ... holding a small collection of waste is that intense eh?

If it goes on a plane, not as cargo but as part of the equipment: yes. Inflameable, certification paper work, corresponding risk for the supplier, obligations to provide said waste bin for, sometimes, 50 years after last serial delivery... That stuff adds up very quickly. Throw in low quantities, and the high NRC ammortized per unit, and that explains a bunch of said prices. Plus obligatory surcharge for being aerosp…

This doesn’t add up to 50k. Maybe 300. Probably not even

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#88

This is a reducto ad absurdum example of how the US government is paying out the nose to keep a bunch of manufacturing and development work on-shore in the USA. Yeah, sure, it's a trash can, there's no reason it should cost $50k. We're all agreed that's an absurd amount to pay for a trash container. The government isn't just paying for the trash can. They're paying for people to design, tool, and maintain that design…

Beyond designing, tooling, and maintaining, there is an amazing time and cost savings to being able to continue to procure existing items.

The amount of paperwork/documentation that has to change, logistics and inventory tracking, plus the battery of tests to check that a new item maintains the same mil standard qualifications as the old.

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#89

This is a reducto ad absurdum example of how the US government is paying out the nose to keep a bunch of manufacturing and development work on-shore in the USA. Yeah, sure, it's a trash can, there's no reason it should cost $50k. We're all agreed that's an absurd amount to pay for a trash container. The government isn't just paying for the trash can. They're paying for people to design, tool, and maintain that design…

“Military spending is good for the economy” is basically the same as the broken window fallacy. There’s a massive opportunity cost

Just think what the private sector could have accomplished if the military didn't waste its time developing ARPANET and early internet standards. Lot of good those ever did us.

Re: The Pentagon’s $52k trash can

#90
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad example, JLCPCB will do PCBA for just a few dollars.

...in China. Which is where we don't want our manufacturing dollars or skill base to go.

Every single trashcan shipped from China for military purpose in US would have to be pulled apart, inspected down to nanolevel and then put back together. That would not be just a few dollars...

Edit:

Yes obviously they are concerned about targeted attacks.

And where do you live that hardware store sells trashcans that verifiably comply with all requirements to be put on a custom military Boeing 707 and not f things up in some costly way? By definition any such trashcan is ripe for targeted attack because no one except US defence would have a use for it.

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