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The Federated App Problem

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Re: The Federated App Problem

#81
"Federated App" sounds odd: protocols are federated, and apparently they are criticized in the article, not software.

The "Learning curve" argument suggests that oligopolies tend to form, so it is not worth bothering. But that applies to pretty much any organizational activity, not just federated protocols, and often people try to push back against oligopolies or monopolies; often it is desirable and possible.

The "Authentication" one only applies to web-based clients, but you can login to remote instances even with those: converse.js supports it for XMPP, for instance. Possibly not in the way the author imagines it should though; perhaps that is closer to OpenID/WebID/OAuth. Still, generally users are not meant to login to every instance directly: even with just Google and Microsoft, you do not login to a Microsoft server to send them a message from your Gmail account, as you do not login into the receiver's email account to place a message for them. Maybe this section should have been titled "learning curve" instead.

The "Search Engine Optimization" probably describes the current state of things (I am not familiar with that), though does not apply to many federated protocols (e.g., I do not want my email or XMPP messages to be SEO'd), and I do not see a technical reason for that when it may be useful (e.g., public blogging or discussions); certainly does not sound like a drawback of federation itself to me, but maybe that of certain search engines' policies.

I personally usually saw discoverability/exploration as the primary issue with both federated and distributed protocols, especially when it comes to social ones, and hoped that RDF with FOAF will help with it. But ActivityPub and Mastodon seem to handle it rather well now, out of fairly widely used protocols.

Re: The Federated App Problem

#82

> I mean that’s the whole point of federation right?? The point of federation is not to be dependent on oligopolies from a single country, one with poor grasp of and legal enforcement of personal privacy at that. >It kinda loses its point. Even if it comes to this, it doesn't. Another migration can happen at any point, but this time you wouldn't lose your social contacts - and in the future hopefully neither your con…

> not to be dependent on oligopolies from a single country, one with poor grasp of and legal enforcement of personal privacy at that.

The oligopolies from a single country might get replaced by groups of instances who will claim they're holders of the Truth and who are the Service, while rest is dangerous. Nothing also stops countries from running own instances or compatible services by dedicated companies or people to either dominate or lure people out of the federation. A good campaign, attractive interface and features and people will follow.

The remaining option is to "run your own instance" but in time when the federation will most likely solidify enough it might be hard to do so. Hard as in getting people to join your new playground. What we're seeing right now it's a boom period.

Don't get me wrong, I do like concept of federated services but there's too many sides where it might fail in long-term and help create a highly tribalized echo-chambered communities

Re: The Federated App Problem

#83

Here's a rant by a person that is annoyed that redditors are not understanding the fediverse: https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/59927/rant-Why-is-th... And they still state that it's easy and the other posters are scratching their heads as to why don't people understand this. "Whyyyy???" They don't seem to understand that the average user doesn't find it easy to use. That's the biggest hint, but instead are act…

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Re: The Federated App Problem

#84
post #38
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well since circa mid-2010s the Internet is apps. Or app-like centralized web sites (like Hacker News). People want to install a single “Lemmy” app on their phone that shows them all Lemmy content and lets them post to all instances, using a single account and a *simple* user interface. If Lemmy cannot provide that user experience (abstracting away the federation), then yes it is doomed.

Could someone smarter than me explain why we can’t use a Bittorrent-like protocol to achieve this effect with federated servers?

If you think bittorrent like protocols are better suited for your usage, there are networks that use that: nostr and scuttlebut. They are not part of what people call the fediverse, because the underlying data format is different, but you can still try it.

To answer the question, and I have just a superficial understanding of the concept, the main issue with decentralized vs. federated protocols is that you have to store the whole (or quite a large chunk of the) social tree locally on your device. That's a lot of data that you don't really care about. It might be fine if you access the network from a computer with plenty of space, but a mobile device might be more problematic.

Re: The Federated App Problem

#85
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you post on many instances? Shouldn't you be posting on _your_ instance, that people you authorized can view?

You make posts on a particular community (through your home instance), and federation means all the other instances will mirror your post

The concept that you get wrong is that nobody mirrors content. Servers receive the content from the one of the original content creator, if they exist in its recipients list. Public content usually is distributed to all servers that the original server knows about. However it's always a PUSH of the content.

Re: The Federated App Problem

#86
Yes. The usual problems. Discovery, identity, storage.

Identity is the hardest problem. Yes, there's stuff like OpenID. But few non-programmers use it. We badly need some kind of ID system that doesn't depend on a vendor that's in the advertising business.

Discovery is a problem mostly because Google has a monopoly in search.

The problem with federated storage is that storage is currently organized by "where", not by "what". There's the BitTorrent approach, where the address is the hash of the content. There's IPFS, but it's 90% Make Money Fast with crypto and 10% actually storing stuff. Whatever happened to the DOI concept?

There's distributed caching, like PeerTube, which works better. Every file has a home location, but if lots of people want something, it gets replicated. So if your cat video goes viral, your tiny server won't be overloaded. That solves the problem of popular content, but not the long tail.

Re: The Federated App Problem

#87
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had absolutely no issues with hosting my own mastodon Just Mastodon - it's not what I'm talking about. Please let me know if my parent comment wasn't clear enough. Mastodon certainly works and you can be just @aj (as long as no one else with the same host-local part walks in, I guess) no matter where the actual conversation is hosted. But what about Lemmy, Peertube, or other Fediverse systems? I'm aware that Mast…

Are you saying that the primary issue is that for each federated service we need a separate account / instance for it as opposed to email which is just one email account? I don't disagree with that but it's the same situation for Reddit, YouTube, Twitter. I have to maintain separate accounts on those platforms too.

Yes. And I get it that we all have separate accounts. The difference is they're entirely separate networks, not one. If I'm on Fediverse, and self-hosting, with my own domain, it's fairly natural to want to have a solid identity, isn't it?

Which is where it's different to email. When self-hosting mail, you can have separate identities too, but those will be created on a purpose (different addresses for different personas/purposes), rather than fragmented because of necessity.

Re: The Federated App Problem

#88
This discussion could be a movie scene:

Prison door malfunctions and lets prisoners free.

Prisoners step out in the sun and get confused by their freedom to move in all directions.

They gloomily walk back to their well understood confines. The door locks again, this time for good.

Ok, fair enough, we don't want them prisoners to go back to the "comfort" of their cell.

What is needed? Not much. A few damn signposts would do. This way to inanity. This way to bliss. This way to scratch your itch. Etc.

To frame freedom as a problem because nobody put up some signs (because honestly who expected serious traffic?) shows how far we have fallen.

Re: The Federated App Problem

#89
post #4

I agree with the premise of the article. I’m a new Mastodon user trying to give the platform an honest shot, but I can’t understand why I would choose any particular server over another. Why choose anything other than the pseudo-default Mastodon.social? If I’m forced to choose another server, is that choice actually meaningful? I feel like I’m randomly picking between Hachyderm and TechHub.io and others. One advantag…

I think if the intent and structure of federation curves towards every household having its own server or something analogous the federated universe seems more sensible. But that does seem like a difficult curve until we have a universe where there's something like app-store level ease around self hosting your household services on something equivalent to a fancy home router is the norm. And that universe seems far off and actively not what the powers that be desire.

Re: The Federated App Problem

#90

This discussion could be a movie scene: Prison door malfunctions and lets prisoners free. Prisoners step out in the sun and get confused by their freedom to move in all directions. They gloomily walk back to their well understood confines. The door locks again, this time for good. Ok, fair enough, we don't want them prisoners to go back to the "comfort" of their cell. What is needed? Not much. A few damn signposts wo…

Funny analogy, here's another one:

Prison door malfunctions and lets prisoners free.

Prisoners step out in the sun to find themselves confused in a never ending maze full of branches in all directions. They have difficulties finding shelter and food.

They walk back to their well understood confines, in relief. The door doesn't lock, but they choose to stay either way.

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